Chamber
Plenary, 28 Feb 2007
28 Feb 2007 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Prostitution (Public Places) (Scotland) Bill
Under the provisions on kerb crawling in the bill as introduced, it would have been a defence that the person was driving in a car, whereas a person on a bus could commit an offence of kerb crawling. That was nonsense, as all members of the Local Government and Transport Committee pointed out. I am pleased that the nonsense has been removed from the bill and that the nuisance test has gone.
However, I am slightly concerned that the Executive did not act on the advice of the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland, which was mentioned in the committee's stage 1 report. ACPOS was concerned that there is no definition of "loiter" in the bill—there is no definition of "solicit", either. We hope that the absence of such definitions will not pose a problem, but it remains to be seen whether it will do.
Sanctions such as disqualification from driving and, in some cases, forfeiture of the vehicle, are necessary. Police and community witnesses agreed with me on that, so I am disappointed that other parties in Parliament did not support the Scottish National Party's stage 3 amendment on the matter. The Conservatives like to pontificate about being tough on crime, but when they had an opportunity to be just that, they shied away, for the technical reason that they do not want to interfere with the powers of the imperial Parliament in Westminster and because they have accepted a half-baked assurance from officials about the possibility of legislation in the future. That is not good enough for the people from whom we heard evidence. The minister has given no clear position about when such sanctions will be introduced, if at all.
In evidence, we heard that only four out of 383 kerb-crawlers who were arrested in Hampshire reoffended, so there is welcome evidence that the rigorous enforcement of a strong regime can significantly reduce kerb crawling.
During stage 1, my colleague Maureen Watt asked the minister why the bill would not apply to saunas and brothels. The bill will tackle only part of the problem. We were told that we should not postpone an attempt to deal with street prostitution. That is correct and I welcome the fact that the bill addresses street prostitution to some extent. However, I hope that we will tackle the wider issue of prostitution in saunas and brothels.
The SNP is pleased to have played an important part in persuading the Executive to change tack significantly. It could be argued that the bill is the first one that has been passed by the Scottish Parliament in eight years that is not politically correct. That might be so, but it is right that we seek to protect women from the violence from dangerous men and drug dealers to which they are exposed daily and it is right that we will make the purchase of sex by men a crime in this country.
However, I am slightly concerned that the Executive did not act on the advice of the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland, which was mentioned in the committee's stage 1 report. ACPOS was concerned that there is no definition of "loiter" in the bill—there is no definition of "solicit", either. We hope that the absence of such definitions will not pose a problem, but it remains to be seen whether it will do.
Sanctions such as disqualification from driving and, in some cases, forfeiture of the vehicle, are necessary. Police and community witnesses agreed with me on that, so I am disappointed that other parties in Parliament did not support the Scottish National Party's stage 3 amendment on the matter. The Conservatives like to pontificate about being tough on crime, but when they had an opportunity to be just that, they shied away, for the technical reason that they do not want to interfere with the powers of the imperial Parliament in Westminster and because they have accepted a half-baked assurance from officials about the possibility of legislation in the future. That is not good enough for the people from whom we heard evidence. The minister has given no clear position about when such sanctions will be introduced, if at all.
In evidence, we heard that only four out of 383 kerb-crawlers who were arrested in Hampshire reoffended, so there is welcome evidence that the rigorous enforcement of a strong regime can significantly reduce kerb crawling.
During stage 1, my colleague Maureen Watt asked the minister why the bill would not apply to saunas and brothels. The bill will tackle only part of the problem. We were told that we should not postpone an attempt to deal with street prostitution. That is correct and I welcome the fact that the bill addresses street prostitution to some extent. However, I hope that we will tackle the wider issue of prostitution in saunas and brothels.
The SNP is pleased to have played an important part in persuading the Executive to change tack significantly. It could be argued that the bill is the first one that has been passed by the Scottish Parliament in eight years that is not politically correct. That might be so, but it is right that we seek to protect women from the violence from dangerous men and drug dealers to which they are exposed daily and it is right that we will make the purchase of sex by men a crime in this country.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman):
Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S2M-5629, in the name of Tom McCabe, that Parliament agrees that the Prostitution (Public Places) (Scotland) ...
The Deputy Minister for Finance, Public Service Reform and Parliamentary Business (George Lyon):
LD
The Prostitution (Public Places) (Scotland) Bill is an important bill that will address an imbalance in the current law on street prostitution. At present, o...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
Order. I ask members who are leaving the chamber to do so quietly.
George Lyon:
LD
I am sure that members will agree that it cannot be right that the law criminalises sellers while remaining silent on the purchasers who exploit them and who...
Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP):
SNP
Can the minister give a little more detail about the announcement this afternoon of the additional £1 million? Can he say in what financial year it will be a...
George Lyon:
LD
If the member waits, I will come to that as I go through my speech.I am aware that there has been some concern about whether the resources are in place to en...
Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (Ind):
Ind
I appreciate the Executive's intention, but how does the minister think the third objective that he outlined will be achieved unless direct contact can be ma...
George Lyon:
LD
Clearly, as the member is well aware, it is important that services are available to those who are involved in prostitution. Indeed, much work goes on in all...
Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP):
SNP
The bill will end the double standard whereby a prostitute can be charged with a criminal offence but the man who purchases sex cannot. We all welcome that. ...
George Lyon:
LD
Does the member acknowledge that the bill as introduced created an offence of kerb crawling, whereby men driving in their cars could be prosecuted and convic...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
Under the provisions on kerb crawling in the bill as introduced, it would have been a defence that the person was driving in a car, whereas a person on a bus...
David McLetchie (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con):
Con
I was interested in Mr Ewing's remarks about our imperial Parliament, as he called it. I simply point out that the present emperor is Scottish, that the next...
Margo MacDonald:
Ind
Will the member be of the same opinion as to the validity of driving street prostitution underground if women are killed and more women are beaten up and vio...
David McLetchie:
Con
I certainly do not want that to happen. We await the information that may come—for example from the case involving the horrific murders in Ipswich—about the ...
Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab):
Lab
In my speech at stage 1, I indicated to Parliament that I believed that the bill as initially drafted had major problems, many of which were highlighted in t...
Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (Ind):
Ind
The bill should be quietly voted down. The Executive admits that the bill in front of us is radically different from the one bearing the same name, introduce...
Mr Frank McAveety (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab):
Lab
I understand Margo MacDonald's passion and commitment, but I disagree profoundly with her analysis of and perspective on the issue.When I first became an MSP...
Frances Curran (West of Scotland) (SSP):
SSP
The amended bill is a vast improvement on its original form and is moving in the right direction. Society's attitude to prostitution and the definition of it...
Iain Smith (North East Fife) (LD):
LD
I welcome the opportunity to explain why I cannot support the bill.Before voting on the bill, members need to ask themselves some key questions. Is the bill ...
Mark Ballard (Lothians) (Green):
Green
This is now a little bill with a very big title.I join in the tributes paid to the expert group and its work to examine how we can provide genuine solutions ...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
Will the member give way?
Mark Ballard:
Green
I do not have enough time.Although the bill may deal with red light districts, will it deal with or simply move street prostitution? It will make it more dif...
Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
LD
I had always thought that kerb crawling was already a statutory offence in Scotland. It is not, but the bill will close the gap in our legislation. Until now...
Margo MacDonald:
Ind
Does the member agree with Fergus Ewing that the purchase of sex should be a crime? I quote exactly.
Mike Rumbles:
LD
No.Bristow Muldoon said that Fergus Ewing was trying to grandstand, which I thought was unfair. He was not trying to grandstand—he was grandstanding.
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
Will the member give way?
Mike Rumbles:
LD
Yes—grandstand again, Fergus.
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
I am curious about whether Mr Rumbles will explain why it is wrong for a man to purchase sex on the street, but right for him to do so in a sauna.
Mike Rumbles:
LD
I do not think that we want to ban the purchase of sex, per se, across the country in all circumstances.
Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP):
SNP
We have already done that for 16 and 17-year-olds.