Chamber
Plenary, 31 Jan 2007
31 Jan 2007 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Health Board Elections (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Surely the same arguments and concerns could be raised against involving the democratic process in the management of education or social work. Even so, I assume that the minister agrees that no one is suggesting that we do away with democratically elected local authorities.
The Minister for Health and Community Care's vehement opposition to the bill and its principles is disappointing. In commenting on the balance of opinion in the committee, he should have said that, at the end of the day, the committee came down in favour of the bill. If the Executive is now saying that it will take forward only legislation that has the overwhelming support of committees, that sheds an interesting light on some of the decisions that it has made.
The minister said in evidence:
"The bill is … unnecessary. It adds nothing to the programme. Indeed, it undermines the current clear and unambiguous lines of accountability from NHS boards to ministers".—[Official Report, Health Committee, 7 November 2006; c 3183.]
I disagree. The minister is taking a rather blinkered view of the matter, which portrays little trust in those who seek to serve as public representatives on elected health boards.
It is good that many of the minister's back benchers do not share that view. I refer to the 16 back benchers who supported Bill Butler's bill from the start. That is positive. I hope that the Tories may change their position in the way that Tory members of the Health Committee did. I hope that they will support the general principles of the bill. Tory members can argue their position on the percentage of elected members at stage 2.
I am very surprised about the continuing reluctance of members of the party of liberal democracy to allow people to have their say on this and other matters. Surely denying the public a say in the way that our health services are delivered is not a very liberal view for them to take. Despite the opposition of Liberal Democrat members, the 16 Labour back benchers who pledged their support for the bill mean that we should have a parliamentary majority in favour of the general principles of the bill.
The Minister for Health and Community Care's vehement opposition to the bill and its principles is disappointing. In commenting on the balance of opinion in the committee, he should have said that, at the end of the day, the committee came down in favour of the bill. If the Executive is now saying that it will take forward only legislation that has the overwhelming support of committees, that sheds an interesting light on some of the decisions that it has made.
The minister said in evidence:
"The bill is … unnecessary. It adds nothing to the programme. Indeed, it undermines the current clear and unambiguous lines of accountability from NHS boards to ministers".—[Official Report, Health Committee, 7 November 2006; c 3183.]
I disagree. The minister is taking a rather blinkered view of the matter, which portrays little trust in those who seek to serve as public representatives on elected health boards.
It is good that many of the minister's back benchers do not share that view. I refer to the 16 back benchers who supported Bill Butler's bill from the start. That is positive. I hope that the Tories may change their position in the way that Tory members of the Health Committee did. I hope that they will support the general principles of the bill. Tory members can argue their position on the percentage of elected members at stage 2.
I am very surprised about the continuing reluctance of members of the party of liberal democracy to allow people to have their say on this and other matters. Surely denying the public a say in the way that our health services are delivered is not a very liberal view for them to take. Despite the opposition of Liberal Democrat members, the 16 Labour back benchers who pledged their support for the bill mean that we should have a parliamentary majority in favour of the general principles of the bill.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman):
Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S2M-5478, in the name of Bill Butler, that the Parliament agrees to the general principles of the Health Boar...
Bill Butler (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab):
Lab
First, I wish to draw attention to my entry in the register of members' interests relating to the financial support given to me by Unison to aid the developm...
Mr David Davidson (North East Scotland) (Con):
Con
Bill Butler said that he would be prepared to accept various amendments at stage 2, but what would he do if health boards as we know them were abolished? The...
Bill Butler:
Lab
I believe that the CHPs are not inimical to the reasonable reform that I have suggested. In response to David Davidson's first question, I point out that no ...
Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (Ind):
Ind
The member has pointed out the need for democracy, openness and accountability. Might they not be provided by a better system of accountability and report ba...
Bill Butler:
Lab
The improvements that have taken place in public participation—I think that that is what the member alludes to—are to be welcomed. In fact, every witness who...
The Minister for Health and Community Care (Mr Andy Kerr):
Lab
It is perhaps no surprise to anyone in the chamber that the Executive is opposed to the bill. I will spend some time explaining the reasons for our position....
Brian Adam (Aberdeen North) (SNP):
SNP
Why does the minister think that it is perfectly acceptable for Edinburgh's man in Glasgow, for example, to be accountable to the public through the minister...
Mr Kerr:
Lab
Because it is the national health service. Week after week in this chamber I hear from members about postcode prescribing, about boards not doing what they s...
Bill Butler:
Lab
Does the minister agree that the estimated cost of £5 million, which is at the top end of the Executive's approximations, would be a drop in the ocean compar...
Mr Kerr:
Lab
Yes, it does. However, the Electoral Reform Society does not believe in Mr Butler's approach to the elections, which could be even more expensive than has be...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
You should be finishing now, minister.
Mr Kerr:
Lab
The bill is emphatically not the answer to the concerns that have been expressed. Our opposition to the bill is long standing and principled and there are go...
Shona Robison (Dundee East) (SNP):
SNP
I pay tribute to the work of Bill Butler and his bill team in developing the bill.The Scottish National Party has supported the principle of direct elections...
Margo MacDonald:
Ind
I simply want us to get our statistics in order. Do we know what percentage of the public is satisfied that they are properly represented in the decisions th...
Shona Robison:
SNP
I am sure that there are a number of views about that and that many members of the public feel that they are not properly represented in the Parliament's dec...
Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
LD
I am surprised by what the member has said, because it is my understanding that Bill Butler is not willing to discuss having a fair voting system and that we...
Shona Robison:
SNP
Mr Rumbles knows how the Parliament works. It is a question of trying to persuade people of the merits of one's arguments at stage 2. That is all one can do....
Mr Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab):
Lab
Will the member give way on that point?
Shona Robison:
SNP
I have taken two interventions and I need to make some progress. Interruption.
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
The member is not taking an intervention.
Shona Robison:
SNP
Surely the same arguments and concerns could be raised against involving the democratic process in the management of education or social work. Even so, I ass...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
The member should be closing.
Shona Robison:
SNP
Surely that option is preferable to that which the minister is taking in fudging the issue by calling for pilots. Clearly, he is diametrically opposed to the...
Mrs Nanette Milne (North East Scotland) (Con):
Con
I came to the stage 1 consideration of the bill with a completely open mind. I fully understand Bill Butler's reasons for introducing it. Over the past year ...
Mike Rumbles:
LD
Will the member take an intervention?
Mrs Milne:
Con
No. There have been exceptions, including the fight to retain the option of giving birth in community hospitals in Aboyne and Fraserburgh in Aberdeenshire. I...
Mr Kerr:
Lab
Is the member aware that, in all the major configurations—including the one that Lewis Macdonald conducted in Lanarkshire—major concessions were made in favo...
Mrs Milne:
Con
I hear what the minister is saying, but I am dealing with a point on Aberdeenshire. The outcome in that case was successful, but only because of a committed ...
Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD):
LD
Will Nanette Milne give way?