Chamber
Plenary, 06 Dec 2006
06 Dec 2006 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Council Tax
I have never heard, in any debating chamber, so many people try to defend the indefensible. Indeed, I find it incomprehensible that any intelligent person can argue for the retention of a totally regressive taxation system.
In response to Tommy Sheridan, Charlie Gordon said that the Labour Party will restore the link between earnings and pensions. That will not happen until 2012, which will be exactly 15 years after Labour came to power—if it is still in power at that time—and a third of a century after Maggie Thatcher did away with the link. On Mr Sheridan's point about the erosion of the value of pensions, today's pension will be worth the equivalent of only £71 before anyone gets around to reassessing the situation and restoring the link.
I could make 1,001 points and talk for four hours on this subject, but I have only another three minutes. Where do I start? The Burt report recommends that
"a new Local Property Tax (LPT) should replace council tax."
That is simply the council tax by another name.
We should take a hard look at recommendation 10 in the report, which refers to
"the introduction of an optional deferment scheme for pensioner households who own their own homes".
That is already happening. As soon as anyone enters a care home, the first person at their bedside is a social worker to means test them. Means testing is the abomination that we all have to live with today. Good, decent people who have worked hard all their lives are being degraded by having to parade their poverty before civil servants and getting—if they are lucky—a pittance in return.
As far as "deferment" is concerned, social workers already tell people in care homes, "You don't have to sell your home to pay for your care—just sign this deferred agreement." The soul signs the paper and, when he or she dies, the vultures descend and take the house to pay for the care that he or she received over the previous X number of years. That is probably what the Burt report means by the
"optional deferment scheme for pensioner households who own their own homes".
What about those who pay rent? They simply do not come into the calculation and will receive no relief.
It cannot be right that, in 2006, a pensioner can receive a national pension of only 9p a week from this Government. Someone might have cared from the age of 16 for their mother for 20 years until she died and then cared for their father for another 24 years until he died. When they turn 60 and try to collect their pension, they find that they have no stamps. When they say, "But I've been a carer all that time," they are told, "If you had applied, we would have given them to you." When they ask whether they can apply retrospectively, they are told that they cannot. Moreover, they might be asked whether they have any money. If they say, "My father left me £25,000," they are simply told, "Come back when you're poor. In the meantime, you can have the minimum pension of 9p a week." We should all think shame of ourselves.
In any case, we must do something to stop means testing. I liked Mr Pringle's suggestions in that respect; indeed, I might even be tempted to vote Liberal with my first vote.
In response to Tommy Sheridan, Charlie Gordon said that the Labour Party will restore the link between earnings and pensions. That will not happen until 2012, which will be exactly 15 years after Labour came to power—if it is still in power at that time—and a third of a century after Maggie Thatcher did away with the link. On Mr Sheridan's point about the erosion of the value of pensions, today's pension will be worth the equivalent of only £71 before anyone gets around to reassessing the situation and restoring the link.
I could make 1,001 points and talk for four hours on this subject, but I have only another three minutes. Where do I start? The Burt report recommends that
"a new Local Property Tax (LPT) should replace council tax."
That is simply the council tax by another name.
We should take a hard look at recommendation 10 in the report, which refers to
"the introduction of an optional deferment scheme for pensioner households who own their own homes".
That is already happening. As soon as anyone enters a care home, the first person at their bedside is a social worker to means test them. Means testing is the abomination that we all have to live with today. Good, decent people who have worked hard all their lives are being degraded by having to parade their poverty before civil servants and getting—if they are lucky—a pittance in return.
As far as "deferment" is concerned, social workers already tell people in care homes, "You don't have to sell your home to pay for your care—just sign this deferred agreement." The soul signs the paper and, when he or she dies, the vultures descend and take the house to pay for the care that he or she received over the previous X number of years. That is probably what the Burt report means by the
"optional deferment scheme for pensioner households who own their own homes".
What about those who pay rent? They simply do not come into the calculation and will receive no relief.
It cannot be right that, in 2006, a pensioner can receive a national pension of only 9p a week from this Government. Someone might have cared from the age of 16 for their mother for 20 years until she died and then cared for their father for another 24 years until he died. When they turn 60 and try to collect their pension, they find that they have no stamps. When they say, "But I've been a carer all that time," they are told, "If you had applied, we would have given them to you." When they ask whether they can apply retrospectively, they are told that they cannot. Moreover, they might be asked whether they have any money. If they say, "My father left me £25,000," they are simply told, "Come back when you're poor. In the meantime, you can have the minimum pension of 9p a week." We should all think shame of ourselves.
In any case, we must do something to stop means testing. I liked Mr Pringle's suggestions in that respect; indeed, I might even be tempted to vote Liberal with my first vote.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Murray Tosh):
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S2M-5258, in the name of Annabel Goldie, on council tax.
Derek Brownlee (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
I hope that the Executive is as concerned for the plight of the council tax payer as it is for the Confederation of British Industry. Council tax in Scotland...
Alasdair Morgan (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Will the member give way?
Derek Brownlee:
Con
I would like to make progress.Today's debate could go one of two ways. It could either rapidly become an academic discussion on the various merits and proble...
Alasdair Morgan:
SNP
Is Mr Brownlee as surprised as the rest of us that, for the second Opposition finance debate in a row, no Labour minister has turned up to defend the Executi...
Derek Brownlee:
Con
I am no longer surprised by the actions of Labour ministers.There may be members who propose a local income tax to replace council tax and those who support ...
Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (Sol):
Sol
Will the member give way on that point?
Derek Brownlee:
Con
No. I want to make progress.Let us be honest: the Burt review was set up to provide cover for a division between the coalition parties. However, it is fair t...
Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP):
SNP
He is no publisher.
Derek Brownlee:
Con
Indeed he is not. He is even reluctant to grace us with his presence, but there we go.There was one occasion when Mr McCabe made it to Parliament and on whic...
The Deputy Minister for Finance, Public Service Reform and Parliamentary Business (George Lyon):
LD
Local taxation issues have long been among the most difficult on which to reach consensus and the most controversial. Even the far-reaching and highly regard...
Tommy Sheridan:
Sol
Will the minister take an intervention?
George Lyon:
LD
I do not have much time and I would like to make progress.The Burt report presents challenges to all political parties, but it also provides a useful platfor...
Tommy Sheridan:
Sol
The minister will be aware that the report cost the Scottish taxpayer more than £350,000. Was the First Minister speaking on behalf of the Executive or the L...
George Lyon:
LD
The matter is very important and the Burt committee has done serious work on it. It behoves all the parties, if they are interested in the future of local go...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
Will the minister give way?
George Lyon:
LD
I am sorry—I must make progress. The debate is so short that I do not have much time to accept interventions.Take-up rates are still too low and we support t...
Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP):
SNP
There are moments in this chamber when one imagines that one could be in a parallel universe because of some of the remarks that are made. In response to a p...
George Lyon:
LD
I hear what Mr Swinney says. However, does he accept that we need, until the system is changed, to try to maximise the amount of benefit that pensioners rece...
Mr Swinney:
SNP
Council tax has been in existence since 1994, but only 56 per cent of pensioners claim council tax benefit. At some stage, the Executive must conclude that t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
I call Bristow Muldoon to open for the Labour Party. You have four minutes.
Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab):
Lab
The issue has been debated on many occasions in the past, and I have no doubt that it will be a major plank of next year's election campaign, with each party...
Derek Brownlee:
Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Bristow Muldoon:
Lab
I do not have time—I have only four minutes, I am afraid. The Tories' solution is a complete mirror image of the approach that Labour has been taking in gove...
Derek Brownlee:
Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Bristow Muldoon:
Lab
No. I have very little time.It is probably just as well that the issue that every single member in the chamber would agree on, including Annabel Goldie, is t...
Mr Swinney:
SNP
Will the member give way?
Bristow Muldoon:
Lab
I have very little time, although I would like to have a longer debate with Mr Swinney on this issue.A local income tax would also damage our ability to recr...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
We move to the open debate.
Mark Ballard (Lothians) (Green):
Green
I am grateful to the Tories for initiating a debate on the council tax. The need for a local government finance system that offers an alternative to the coun...