Chamber
Plenary, 06 Dec 2006
06 Dec 2006 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Council Tax
Indeed he is not. He is even reluctant to grace us with his presence, but there we go.
There was one occasion when Mr McCabe made it to Parliament and on which he told Mr McLetchie that the report "remains under active consideration". The First Minister said to Nicola Sturgeon during First Minister's question time in November that he had made his view clear, so the Minister for Finance and Public Service Reform is coming from a very different point of view.
The Deputy Minister for Finance and Public Service Reform, Mr Lyon, confirmed in his evidence to the Local Government and Transport Committee that the idea of taxing every home in Scotland on its value is very much alive. It is not surprising that Labour is minded to support the idea, because it has just imposed it on Northern Ireland—yet people are surprised that Labour does not field candidates there. I am not saying that the council tax is perfect, but it is infinitely preferable to a local property tax.
There are also problems with a local income tax. Evidence from HM Revenue and Customs on the Scottish Socialist Party's Council Tax Abolition and Service Tax Introduction (Scotland) Bill estimated that it would take nine years to get the service tax up and running, and that is for a tax that would have one set of rates rather than 32.
The Lib Dems and the nationalists both support a local income tax. The Scottish National Party makes that clear in its amendment. I wonder which would be the more terrifying prospect if the Lib Dems and SNP were to surge ahead in the polls: the idea that a coalition between the two would impose a local income tax in Scotland or the idea of Mr Lyon as finance minister and Mr Swinney as his deputy.
Not every Lib Dem is in favour of a local income tax, however. No less a figure than the president of the Liberal Democrats, Simon Hughes, said on his party's plans for a local income tax that "there was a flaw". What was that flaw? It is that it means
"different things in different parts of the country".
Not like a typical Lib Dem policy, then?
Just in case Labour members are a little too comfortable now, we read during the summer that
"a source close to Labour's policy forum"
thought that the idea of a council tax discount for pensioners "had legs". However, the policy does not need legs of its own when Labour members are running away from it so quickly. I wonder whether that is because they burned their fingers badly in 2005. Members may remember that, just before the 2005 general election, the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced a £200 discount on council tax for pensioners. At that time, he said that it was
"a measure that is fairer and worth more to … pensioners than all other proposed schemes."—[Official Report, House of Commons, 16 Mar 2005; Vol 432, c 269.]
The press release that accompanied the announcement said:
"the Government believes it is right to help elderly households with their council tax."
The decision was right in 2005 before an election, but wrong in 2006 after one, when the payment was scrapped. That was not because the chancellor believed that the principle was wrong: if we believe The Guardian, it was scrapped "to damage Labour's chances" in the English local elections in May. We must hand it to him—it certainly worked.
The fundamental issue that we confront is a choice between the Lib Dems, who propose a local income tax and other measures that could not be implemented quickly, and people who prefer a pragmatic approach that would achieve results. The plans that we have proposed are costed, affordable and sustainable. They are simple to understand and would be easy to implement. More important, they would deliver lower tax to pensioners next year, rather than in nine years. All that is required is the political will.
I have pleasure in moving the motion in Annabel Goldie's name. I move,
That the Parliament notes the recommendations of the Independent Local Government Finance Review Committee report but opposes its central recommendation of a "local property tax"; agrees that the 60% increase in council tax levels since Labour came to power has left those on low incomes struggling to pay their council tax bills, especially our pensioner households, and therefore calls for a 50% discount on council tax for all pensioner households aged 65 and over in Scotland, as proposed by the Scottish Conservatives.
There was one occasion when Mr McCabe made it to Parliament and on which he told Mr McLetchie that the report "remains under active consideration". The First Minister said to Nicola Sturgeon during First Minister's question time in November that he had made his view clear, so the Minister for Finance and Public Service Reform is coming from a very different point of view.
The Deputy Minister for Finance and Public Service Reform, Mr Lyon, confirmed in his evidence to the Local Government and Transport Committee that the idea of taxing every home in Scotland on its value is very much alive. It is not surprising that Labour is minded to support the idea, because it has just imposed it on Northern Ireland—yet people are surprised that Labour does not field candidates there. I am not saying that the council tax is perfect, but it is infinitely preferable to a local property tax.
There are also problems with a local income tax. Evidence from HM Revenue and Customs on the Scottish Socialist Party's Council Tax Abolition and Service Tax Introduction (Scotland) Bill estimated that it would take nine years to get the service tax up and running, and that is for a tax that would have one set of rates rather than 32.
The Lib Dems and the nationalists both support a local income tax. The Scottish National Party makes that clear in its amendment. I wonder which would be the more terrifying prospect if the Lib Dems and SNP were to surge ahead in the polls: the idea that a coalition between the two would impose a local income tax in Scotland or the idea of Mr Lyon as finance minister and Mr Swinney as his deputy.
Not every Lib Dem is in favour of a local income tax, however. No less a figure than the president of the Liberal Democrats, Simon Hughes, said on his party's plans for a local income tax that "there was a flaw". What was that flaw? It is that it means
"different things in different parts of the country".
Not like a typical Lib Dem policy, then?
Just in case Labour members are a little too comfortable now, we read during the summer that
"a source close to Labour's policy forum"
thought that the idea of a council tax discount for pensioners "had legs". However, the policy does not need legs of its own when Labour members are running away from it so quickly. I wonder whether that is because they burned their fingers badly in 2005. Members may remember that, just before the 2005 general election, the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced a £200 discount on council tax for pensioners. At that time, he said that it was
"a measure that is fairer and worth more to … pensioners than all other proposed schemes."—[Official Report, House of Commons, 16 Mar 2005; Vol 432, c 269.]
The press release that accompanied the announcement said:
"the Government believes it is right to help elderly households with their council tax."
The decision was right in 2005 before an election, but wrong in 2006 after one, when the payment was scrapped. That was not because the chancellor believed that the principle was wrong: if we believe The Guardian, it was scrapped "to damage Labour's chances" in the English local elections in May. We must hand it to him—it certainly worked.
The fundamental issue that we confront is a choice between the Lib Dems, who propose a local income tax and other measures that could not be implemented quickly, and people who prefer a pragmatic approach that would achieve results. The plans that we have proposed are costed, affordable and sustainable. They are simple to understand and would be easy to implement. More important, they would deliver lower tax to pensioners next year, rather than in nine years. All that is required is the political will.
I have pleasure in moving the motion in Annabel Goldie's name. I move,
That the Parliament notes the recommendations of the Independent Local Government Finance Review Committee report but opposes its central recommendation of a "local property tax"; agrees that the 60% increase in council tax levels since Labour came to power has left those on low incomes struggling to pay their council tax bills, especially our pensioner households, and therefore calls for a 50% discount on council tax for all pensioner households aged 65 and over in Scotland, as proposed by the Scottish Conservatives.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Murray Tosh):
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S2M-5258, in the name of Annabel Goldie, on council tax.
Derek Brownlee (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
I hope that the Executive is as concerned for the plight of the council tax payer as it is for the Confederation of British Industry. Council tax in Scotland...
Alasdair Morgan (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Will the member give way?
Derek Brownlee:
Con
I would like to make progress.Today's debate could go one of two ways. It could either rapidly become an academic discussion on the various merits and proble...
Alasdair Morgan:
SNP
Is Mr Brownlee as surprised as the rest of us that, for the second Opposition finance debate in a row, no Labour minister has turned up to defend the Executi...
Derek Brownlee:
Con
I am no longer surprised by the actions of Labour ministers.There may be members who propose a local income tax to replace council tax and those who support ...
Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (Sol):
Sol
Will the member give way on that point?
Derek Brownlee:
Con
No. I want to make progress.Let us be honest: the Burt review was set up to provide cover for a division between the coalition parties. However, it is fair t...
Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP):
SNP
He is no publisher.
Derek Brownlee:
Con
Indeed he is not. He is even reluctant to grace us with his presence, but there we go.There was one occasion when Mr McCabe made it to Parliament and on whic...
The Deputy Minister for Finance, Public Service Reform and Parliamentary Business (George Lyon):
LD
Local taxation issues have long been among the most difficult on which to reach consensus and the most controversial. Even the far-reaching and highly regard...
Tommy Sheridan:
Sol
Will the minister take an intervention?
George Lyon:
LD
I do not have much time and I would like to make progress.The Burt report presents challenges to all political parties, but it also provides a useful platfor...
Tommy Sheridan:
Sol
The minister will be aware that the report cost the Scottish taxpayer more than £350,000. Was the First Minister speaking on behalf of the Executive or the L...
George Lyon:
LD
The matter is very important and the Burt committee has done serious work on it. It behoves all the parties, if they are interested in the future of local go...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
Will the minister give way?
George Lyon:
LD
I am sorry—I must make progress. The debate is so short that I do not have much time to accept interventions.Take-up rates are still too low and we support t...
Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP):
SNP
There are moments in this chamber when one imagines that one could be in a parallel universe because of some of the remarks that are made. In response to a p...
George Lyon:
LD
I hear what Mr Swinney says. However, does he accept that we need, until the system is changed, to try to maximise the amount of benefit that pensioners rece...
Mr Swinney:
SNP
Council tax has been in existence since 1994, but only 56 per cent of pensioners claim council tax benefit. At some stage, the Executive must conclude that t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
I call Bristow Muldoon to open for the Labour Party. You have four minutes.
Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab):
Lab
The issue has been debated on many occasions in the past, and I have no doubt that it will be a major plank of next year's election campaign, with each party...
Derek Brownlee:
Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Bristow Muldoon:
Lab
I do not have time—I have only four minutes, I am afraid. The Tories' solution is a complete mirror image of the approach that Labour has been taking in gove...
Derek Brownlee:
Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Bristow Muldoon:
Lab
No. I have very little time.It is probably just as well that the issue that every single member in the chamber would agree on, including Annabel Goldie, is t...
Mr Swinney:
SNP
Will the member give way?
Bristow Muldoon:
Lab
I have very little time, although I would like to have a longer debate with Mr Swinney on this issue.A local income tax would also damage our ability to recr...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
We move to the open debate.
Mark Ballard (Lothians) (Green):
Green
I am grateful to the Tories for initiating a debate on the council tax. The need for a local government finance system that offers an alternative to the coun...