Chamber
Plenary, 23 Nov 2006
23 Nov 2006 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Adult Support and Protection (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
It should be clear to the minister from the debate that parts 2 to 4 of the bill will not cause him a great deal of difficulty. The interest will focus on part 1. I will pick up one or two points in the best order that I can.
The definition of adults at risk will be important, and it is welcome to have the minister's helpful remarks and his commitment to consider it carefully. We will need to be clear about what the minister's amendments say. There will doubtless be considerable debate at the Health Committee on that point. It is important that we establish the definition and that it should not thereafter be amendable by statutory instrument. It would be unfortunate if that was the case, particularly if it was amendable under the negative procedure.
I ask the minister to reconsider proposed new section 87A of the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968, which introduces a power to modify that act for persons placed from outwith Scotland, and appears to allow ministers to alter a statute. That needs further consideration.
The minister said that he will reconsider the definition of "abuse". A number of possible definitions have been advanced and, as I said earlier, "harm" might be a better and more helpful term.
Members made a number of suggestions on the powers of officers to enter premises. It has helpfully been said that the term "council officer" will need more clarification. However, we must understand what is meant by phrases such as "any adjacent place". If the minister is not minded to change the wording, a Pepper v Hart statement as to what is meant by "any adjacent place" might be helpful at stage 2 or 3. The powers to enter premises will have to be used sparingly and carefully. They should not be regarded as a general right to barge unwelcome into any home.
Roseanna Cunningham made a point about respecting different lifestyles. I am sure that that is the Executive's intention, but the minister must make clear remarks to that effect at stage 2. It is important to respect the fact that there might be differences in what is acceptable between generations, given that younger people might enter older people's homes. Differences arising from custom and practice or upbringing need to be respected. Certain standards that a younger generation might apply to a particular situation need not be the same standards that an older generation would apply, for understandable and acceptable reasons. We can return to that at stage 2.
It is important to include advocacy in the bill. Robin Harper made an interesting point about the effect on carers. I had not previously considered that carers might think that the bill was somehow threatening to them. I had considered the alternative—that it would be helpful to them to a considerable degree. The issue is interesting and will need to be considered further.
Section 5, which describes the additional agencies to which the bill applies, could specify the police, because they are important. I know that they are included in a general description, but it would be helpful if they were specified.
The most important feature of the bill relates to what I describe as a circle of protection around the people who need it. So often, we have seen a communication breakdown in that circle of protection, such that the people who had evidence and understanding did not pass it on, or only an incomplete picture was available. I hope that the bill will ensure that that does not happen again. Of course there will be incidences of human failing, but the policy intention should be clear.
Adult protection committees, which will be put on a statutory footing, are important, because they are a focus in that circle of protection. With all due respect to the member who suggested this, who is no longer here, it is unfair to suggest that they are just a prescription for bureaucracy and additional members of staff. If that were the case, they would not be worth while. The fundamental purpose of those committees, which is of considerable importance, is misunderstood.
It is important that recommendation 23 in the Health Committee's report, on advance statements, is implemented.
Overall, I remain convinced that the bill is important. It covers what might be considered to be gaps in statutory provision. Moreover, it should leave no doubt, which has arisen in the past among public authorities about how they should proceed when confronted with people who need protection. The ethos of the bill is correct and it is worth while, which is why I commend it to members and hope that it is successful this evening.
The definition of adults at risk will be important, and it is welcome to have the minister's helpful remarks and his commitment to consider it carefully. We will need to be clear about what the minister's amendments say. There will doubtless be considerable debate at the Health Committee on that point. It is important that we establish the definition and that it should not thereafter be amendable by statutory instrument. It would be unfortunate if that was the case, particularly if it was amendable under the negative procedure.
I ask the minister to reconsider proposed new section 87A of the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968, which introduces a power to modify that act for persons placed from outwith Scotland, and appears to allow ministers to alter a statute. That needs further consideration.
The minister said that he will reconsider the definition of "abuse". A number of possible definitions have been advanced and, as I said earlier, "harm" might be a better and more helpful term.
Members made a number of suggestions on the powers of officers to enter premises. It has helpfully been said that the term "council officer" will need more clarification. However, we must understand what is meant by phrases such as "any adjacent place". If the minister is not minded to change the wording, a Pepper v Hart statement as to what is meant by "any adjacent place" might be helpful at stage 2 or 3. The powers to enter premises will have to be used sparingly and carefully. They should not be regarded as a general right to barge unwelcome into any home.
Roseanna Cunningham made a point about respecting different lifestyles. I am sure that that is the Executive's intention, but the minister must make clear remarks to that effect at stage 2. It is important to respect the fact that there might be differences in what is acceptable between generations, given that younger people might enter older people's homes. Differences arising from custom and practice or upbringing need to be respected. Certain standards that a younger generation might apply to a particular situation need not be the same standards that an older generation would apply, for understandable and acceptable reasons. We can return to that at stage 2.
It is important to include advocacy in the bill. Robin Harper made an interesting point about the effect on carers. I had not previously considered that carers might think that the bill was somehow threatening to them. I had considered the alternative—that it would be helpful to them to a considerable degree. The issue is interesting and will need to be considered further.
Section 5, which describes the additional agencies to which the bill applies, could specify the police, because they are important. I know that they are included in a general description, but it would be helpful if they were specified.
The most important feature of the bill relates to what I describe as a circle of protection around the people who need it. So often, we have seen a communication breakdown in that circle of protection, such that the people who had evidence and understanding did not pass it on, or only an incomplete picture was available. I hope that the bill will ensure that that does not happen again. Of course there will be incidences of human failing, but the policy intention should be clear.
Adult protection committees, which will be put on a statutory footing, are important, because they are a focus in that circle of protection. With all due respect to the member who suggested this, who is no longer here, it is unfair to suggest that they are just a prescription for bureaucracy and additional members of staff. If that were the case, they would not be worth while. The fundamental purpose of those committees, which is of considerable importance, is misunderstood.
It is important that recommendation 23 in the Health Committee's report, on advance statements, is implemented.
Overall, I remain convinced that the bill is important. It covers what might be considered to be gaps in statutory provision. Moreover, it should leave no doubt, which has arisen in the past among public authorities about how they should proceed when confronted with people who need protection. The ethos of the bill is correct and it is worth while, which is why I commend it to members and hope that it is successful this evening.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman):
Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S2M-5042, in the name of Andy Kerr, that the Parliament agrees to the general principles of the Adult Support...
The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care (Lewis Macdonald):
Lab
We introduced the Adult Support and Protection (Scotland) Bill principally to provide support and protection for those people in our communities who are vuln...
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Has the minister discussed the civil shrieval procedures that would have to take place? I see no mention of them. Will they be like interim interdicts? How w...
Lewis Macdonald:
Lab
We have taken appropriate advice on the procedures, to which I will be happy to return in the course of the afternoon to give Christine Grahame more detail o...
Shona Robison (Dundee East) (SNP):
SNP
The bill has had what I would describe as a difficult birth. Perhaps that is because, as I understand it, its origins lay with the Bichard proposals, from wh...
Mrs Nanette Milne (North East Scotland) (Con):
Con
This may be a somewhat repetitive debate.As we know, the general purpose of the bill is to provide an overall framework of support and protection for adults ...
Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD):
LD
I am particularly pleased to take part in the debate. Legislation in this important area is clearly necessary.The reforms in part 1 of the bill are, frankly,...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
It may be helpful if I indicate that at this stage in the debate I am not applying the normal time limits.
Euan Robson:
LD
Thank you. In that case, I will be slightly more expansive than I would otherwise have been.It is clear that statutory adult protection committees will be va...
Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP):
SNP
It is often said that the committee system is the heart and soul of what happens in the Scottish Parliament, combining as it does the functions of select and...
Janis Hughes (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab):
Lab
In my time on the Health Committee, we have scrutinised a raft of legislation on many subjects, and the bill is definitely up there with those that have enge...
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
As some members might know, I come to the bill against the background of the Miss X case, in which a lady with learning difficulties suffered horrific abuse ...
Section 9, entitled “Examination of records etc”, says in subsection (1):
"A council officer may require any person holding health, financial or other records relating to an individual whom the officer knows or believes to be an ad...
Lewis Macdonald:
Lab
I seek clarification from Christine Grahame as to which places she thinks should not be included in the bill, because I think that the intention is evident.
Christine Grahame:
SNP
Such situations occur when people have capacity and against their will, but the bill would allow a council officer to go to their bank and look at their bank...
Euan Robson:
LD
The point is that if we put such committees on a statutory footing, there will be no doubt that they should exist. Although the Borders committee was born of...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
I cannot agree. The process is happening in many places in Scotland. The chief social work inspector could make plain through her guidance that that is what ...
Christine May (Central Fife) (Lab):
Lab
I think that I may be the only non-member of the Health Committee to participate in the debate so far.
Roseanna Cunningham:
SNP
No. Christine Grahame is not on the committee.
Christine May:
Lab
I beg Christine Grahame's pardon.It may come as a surprise to members, although I hope that it does not, to learn that we are all getting older. We hope that...
Dr Jean Turner (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind):
Ind
When I first started to read the bill, I realised that there was a need for people to be able to enter patients' homes to assess them but, as I read through ...
Christine May:
Lab
Does Dr Turner agree that some of the dreadful cases in the past have arisen because of reluctance to share such information?
Dr Turner:
Ind
Christine May is correct. People need training in how they should use and share information. I believe that people should share information. I also believe t...
Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab):
Lab
I am in no doubt why the people of Scotland need the Adult Support and Protection (Scotland) Bill. It is clear to me, having sat through the Health Committee...
Christine May:
Lab
Yes I am.
Helen Eadie:
Lab
I am so sorry—I meant Christine Grahame, not Christine May.The response to those questions by Adrian Ward of the Law Society of Scotland was compelling. He s...
Shona Robison:
SNP
In which cases would the member think it appropriate to override the views of an adult with capacity who did not want an intervention?
Helen Eadie:
Lab
I will return to that point later in my speech. The point was covered by a Mr Graham, a physician who gave evidence to the committee on the bill.Mr Ward cont...
Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green):
Green
During the previous session of Parliament, in 2002 to 2003, I tried to have hate crime legislation extended to all the groups that are identified under Europ...
Euan Robson:
LD
It should be clear to the minister from the debate that parts 2 to 4 of the bill will not cause him a great deal of difficulty. The interest will focus on pa...