Chamber
Plenary, 23 Nov 2006
23 Nov 2006 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Adult Support and Protection (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
As some members might know, I come to the bill against the background of the Miss X case, in which a lady with learning difficulties suffered horrific abuse over a substantial period at the hands of her siblings, to the point where her life was put at risk. The faults in that case, and there were many, were put down to the practice and procedures of the social work department, including the failure to look at reports properly, the failure to make connections and the failure to follow up. One of the large failures was not to see the young woman on her own, without the siblings who were abusing her being in the background.
People might have thought that I would welcome the bill because it would have provided the opportunity to enter the lady's house and speak to her away from those who threatened her. In fact, although a guardianship order was in place that would have allowed the social work department to enter the premises to see how the ward was doing, it was not used.
Although I welcome the purposes of the bill, I wonder whether it will change anything. One of the interesting comments in the committee's report came from a witness who said:
"the question is whether the Bill takes a sledgehammer to crack a nut".
The more I read the report and looked at the bill—I will speak about the flaws in the drafting—the more I wondered whether it is too heavy handed and will simply not deliver. The Government is in the habit of producing legislation that might not be necessary, despite which the SNP will support the bill at this stage. Nevertheless, I want to look at some of the problems.
Many of the definitions have been covered, but let us consider one that has not—visits, which are dealt with by section 6. The definition of "council officer" has been dealt with, but let us look at the next words in that section. It says that a council officer
"may enter any place for the purpose of enabling or assisting a council conducting inquiries under section 4 to decide whether it needs to do anything".
That is extremely wide. I would like the minister to tell me what kind of places ought to be covered.
People might have thought that I would welcome the bill because it would have provided the opportunity to enter the lady's house and speak to her away from those who threatened her. In fact, although a guardianship order was in place that would have allowed the social work department to enter the premises to see how the ward was doing, it was not used.
Although I welcome the purposes of the bill, I wonder whether it will change anything. One of the interesting comments in the committee's report came from a witness who said:
"the question is whether the Bill takes a sledgehammer to crack a nut".
The more I read the report and looked at the bill—I will speak about the flaws in the drafting—the more I wondered whether it is too heavy handed and will simply not deliver. The Government is in the habit of producing legislation that might not be necessary, despite which the SNP will support the bill at this stage. Nevertheless, I want to look at some of the problems.
Many of the definitions have been covered, but let us consider one that has not—visits, which are dealt with by section 6. The definition of "council officer" has been dealt with, but let us look at the next words in that section. It says that a council officer
"may enter any place for the purpose of enabling or assisting a council conducting inquiries under section 4 to decide whether it needs to do anything".
That is extremely wide. I would like the minister to tell me what kind of places ought to be covered.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman):
Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S2M-5042, in the name of Andy Kerr, that the Parliament agrees to the general principles of the Adult Support...
The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care (Lewis Macdonald):
Lab
We introduced the Adult Support and Protection (Scotland) Bill principally to provide support and protection for those people in our communities who are vuln...
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Has the minister discussed the civil shrieval procedures that would have to take place? I see no mention of them. Will they be like interim interdicts? How w...
Lewis Macdonald:
Lab
We have taken appropriate advice on the procedures, to which I will be happy to return in the course of the afternoon to give Christine Grahame more detail o...
Shona Robison (Dundee East) (SNP):
SNP
The bill has had what I would describe as a difficult birth. Perhaps that is because, as I understand it, its origins lay with the Bichard proposals, from wh...
Mrs Nanette Milne (North East Scotland) (Con):
Con
This may be a somewhat repetitive debate.As we know, the general purpose of the bill is to provide an overall framework of support and protection for adults ...
Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD):
LD
I am particularly pleased to take part in the debate. Legislation in this important area is clearly necessary.The reforms in part 1 of the bill are, frankly,...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
It may be helpful if I indicate that at this stage in the debate I am not applying the normal time limits.
Euan Robson:
LD
Thank you. In that case, I will be slightly more expansive than I would otherwise have been.It is clear that statutory adult protection committees will be va...
Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP):
SNP
It is often said that the committee system is the heart and soul of what happens in the Scottish Parliament, combining as it does the functions of select and...
Janis Hughes (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab):
Lab
In my time on the Health Committee, we have scrutinised a raft of legislation on many subjects, and the bill is definitely up there with those that have enge...
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
As some members might know, I come to the bill against the background of the Miss X case, in which a lady with learning difficulties suffered horrific abuse ...
Section 9, entitled “Examination of records etc”, says in subsection (1):
"A council officer may require any person holding health, financial or other records relating to an individual whom the officer knows or believes to be an ad...
Lewis Macdonald:
Lab
I seek clarification from Christine Grahame as to which places she thinks should not be included in the bill, because I think that the intention is evident.
Christine Grahame:
SNP
Such situations occur when people have capacity and against their will, but the bill would allow a council officer to go to their bank and look at their bank...
Euan Robson:
LD
The point is that if we put such committees on a statutory footing, there will be no doubt that they should exist. Although the Borders committee was born of...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
I cannot agree. The process is happening in many places in Scotland. The chief social work inspector could make plain through her guidance that that is what ...
Christine May (Central Fife) (Lab):
Lab
I think that I may be the only non-member of the Health Committee to participate in the debate so far.
Roseanna Cunningham:
SNP
No. Christine Grahame is not on the committee.
Christine May:
Lab
I beg Christine Grahame's pardon.It may come as a surprise to members, although I hope that it does not, to learn that we are all getting older. We hope that...
Dr Jean Turner (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind):
Ind
When I first started to read the bill, I realised that there was a need for people to be able to enter patients' homes to assess them but, as I read through ...
Christine May:
Lab
Does Dr Turner agree that some of the dreadful cases in the past have arisen because of reluctance to share such information?
Dr Turner:
Ind
Christine May is correct. People need training in how they should use and share information. I believe that people should share information. I also believe t...
Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab):
Lab
I am in no doubt why the people of Scotland need the Adult Support and Protection (Scotland) Bill. It is clear to me, having sat through the Health Committee...
Christine May:
Lab
Yes I am.
Helen Eadie:
Lab
I am so sorry—I meant Christine Grahame, not Christine May.The response to those questions by Adrian Ward of the Law Society of Scotland was compelling. He s...
Shona Robison:
SNP
In which cases would the member think it appropriate to override the views of an adult with capacity who did not want an intervention?
Helen Eadie:
Lab
I will return to that point later in my speech. The point was covered by a Mr Graham, a physician who gave evidence to the committee on the bill.Mr Ward cont...
Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green):
Green
During the previous session of Parliament, in 2002 to 2003, I tried to have hate crime legislation extended to all the groups that are identified under Europ...
Euan Robson:
LD
It should be clear to the minister from the debate that parts 2 to 4 of the bill will not cause him a great deal of difficulty. The interest will focus on pa...