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Chamber

Plenary, 23 Nov 2006

23 Nov 2006 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Adult Support and Protection (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Hughes, Janis Lab Glasgow Rutherglen Watch on SPTV
In my time on the Health Committee, we have scrutinised a raft of legislation on many subjects, and the bill is definitely up there with those that have engendered the most debate. As we have heard, the committee deliberated long and hard over its stage 1 report. It seemed that we had to determine not only whether the bill was good law, but whether it was necessary to introduce a new bill or whether existing legislation was sufficient to cover the areas that the bill seeks to address.

In common with the rest of the committee, I welcome the measures that have been included in parts 2 and 3 of the bill. They are sensible amendments to existing legislation and they will ensure that the bill delivers its stated policy aims. However, part 1 of the bill is more contentious and raises the most significant concerns. I share the committee's view—and other members have raised the issue—about the powers contained in section 3 to 38.

It is often said that a civilised society is defined by how it looks after its more vulnerable citizens. We have a duty to ensure that the bill lives up to its name and offers protection to those citizens. Although I do not doubt that the bill could be worthwhile legislation if it is eventually passed, it is clear to me that it will require significant amendment if it is truly to be fit for purpose.

I whole-heartedly agree with the minister's assertion to the committee in his letter of 17 November that

"there are some individuals in our society who do cause harm intentionally and it is critical that this bill introduces measures that prevent this."

The question for the committee is whether or not the bill as it stands introduces those measures in an appropriate way.

There must be a careful balancing act to ensure that we protect those in our society who are vulnerable, but allow individuals the right to live their lives as they choose. The bill should certainly not be a policing mechanism. Because of the definitions of the terms "adults at risk" and "abuse", I hope that the minister will agree that the bill requires some refinement. I will elaborate more on that shortly.

During one of our evidence sessions, the committee heard from Kevin Morris, disabled students officer for the National Union of Students; he has already been quoted. Kevin told us that he was

"scared by the general principles of the bill and the school of thought that lies behind it. The fact that it is all-encompassing is very dangerous. That scares many disabled people."—[Official Report, Health Committee, 19 September 2006; c 3043.]

That is why I was pleased to note from the aforementioned letter that the minister is

"willing to narrow the definition of adults at risk to make clear that it will not relate to all people with disabilities."

Sometimes it might be necessary to use a sledgehammer to crack a nut, but this is not one of those times. I hope that the minister also takes into account the committee's views, which echo those of the Subordinate Legislation Committee, on deleting that part of the bill that permits the definition of adults at risk to be amended by subordinate legislation. That is a very important recommendation.

I would like to minister to clarify the definition of "abuse". Fourteen of the 18 respondents who made substantive comments on that had clear concerns about that definition. The committee felt strongly that the term implies intentional, perhaps even malicious harm and, although that does happen—we are not saying that it does not—the situation is often more one of benign neglect. To label someone as an abuser in those circumstances would be unhelpful in the extreme.

The minister has now told the committee that he is

"willing to reconsider the use of the term ‘abuse' throughout the Bill",

and I hope that the Executive will lodge significant amendments on that point at stage 2. The alternative term, "adults at risk of serious harm", was suggested during our stage 1 deliberations and I am sure that there will be many other suggestions. I look forward to hearing the minister's amendments.

The bill is aimed at widening the raft of protection measures previously put in place by the Parliament for those who are covered under the Mental Health (Care and Treatment) (Scotland) Act 2003 and the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Act 2000. The acts ensure that those people have a right to independent advocacy services. As we have already heard from Nanette Milne, that is not the case with the bill that we are discussing today. It is vital that those who would be covered under the bill have the same rights as those who are covered by other, similar acts. I hope that we hear a commitment to that from the minister today.

Having said all that, I support the bill's aims because I believe it to be well intentioned, and I now believe it to be necessary, although I was not convinced of that at the outset. However, I agree with Shona Robison's comments about the number of amendments that are likely to be necessary at stage 2. I have a sense of déjà vu, because this is not the first health-related bill that I have been involved with to be in this position. I hope that the minister and his civil servants take that on board.

I urge Parliament to support the bill at stage 1. I also urge the Executive to work with the committee to deliver legislation that will not stigmatise Scotland's vulnerable adults but will provide the necessary support to help them.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman): Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S2M-5042, in the name of Andy Kerr, that the Parliament agrees to the general principles of the Adult Support...
The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care (Lewis Macdonald): Lab
We introduced the Adult Support and Protection (Scotland) Bill principally to provide support and protection for those people in our communities who are vuln...
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP): SNP
Has the minister discussed the civil shrieval procedures that would have to take place? I see no mention of them. Will they be like interim interdicts? How w...
Lewis Macdonald: Lab
We have taken appropriate advice on the procedures, to which I will be happy to return in the course of the afternoon to give Christine Grahame more detail o...
Shona Robison (Dundee East) (SNP): SNP
The bill has had what I would describe as a difficult birth. Perhaps that is because, as I understand it, its origins lay with the Bichard proposals, from wh...
Mrs Nanette Milne (North East Scotland) (Con): Con
This may be a somewhat repetitive debate.As we know, the general purpose of the bill is to provide an overall framework of support and protection for adults ...
Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD): LD
I am particularly pleased to take part in the debate. Legislation in this important area is clearly necessary.The reforms in part 1 of the bill are, frankly,...
The Deputy Presiding Officer: Lab
It may be helpful if I indicate that at this stage in the debate I am not applying the normal time limits.
Euan Robson: LD
Thank you. In that case, I will be slightly more expansive than I would otherwise have been.It is clear that statutory adult protection committees will be va...
Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP): SNP
It is often said that the committee system is the heart and soul of what happens in the Scottish Parliament, combining as it does the functions of select and...
Janis Hughes (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab): Lab
In my time on the Health Committee, we have scrutinised a raft of legislation on many subjects, and the bill is definitely up there with those that have enge...
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP): SNP
As some members might know, I come to the bill against the background of the Miss X case, in which a lady with learning difficulties suffered horrific abuse ...
Section 9, entitled “Examination of records etc”, says in subsection (1):
"A council officer may require any person holding health, financial or other records relating to an individual whom the officer knows or believes to be an ad...
Lewis Macdonald: Lab
I seek clarification from Christine Grahame as to which places she thinks should not be included in the bill, because I think that the intention is evident.
Christine Grahame: SNP
Such situations occur when people have capacity and against their will, but the bill would allow a council officer to go to their bank and look at their bank...
Euan Robson: LD
The point is that if we put such committees on a statutory footing, there will be no doubt that they should exist. Although the Borders committee was born of...
Christine Grahame: SNP
I cannot agree. The process is happening in many places in Scotland. The chief social work inspector could make plain through her guidance that that is what ...
Christine May (Central Fife) (Lab): Lab
I think that I may be the only non-member of the Health Committee to participate in the debate so far.
Roseanna Cunningham: SNP
No. Christine Grahame is not on the committee.
Christine May: Lab
I beg Christine Grahame's pardon.It may come as a surprise to members, although I hope that it does not, to learn that we are all getting older. We hope that...
Dr Jean Turner (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind): Ind
When I first started to read the bill, I realised that there was a need for people to be able to enter patients' homes to assess them but, as I read through ...
Christine May: Lab
Does Dr Turner agree that some of the dreadful cases in the past have arisen because of reluctance to share such information?
Dr Turner: Ind
Christine May is correct. People need training in how they should use and share information. I believe that people should share information. I also believe t...
Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab): Lab
I am in no doubt why the people of Scotland need the Adult Support and Protection (Scotland) Bill. It is clear to me, having sat through the Health Committee...
Christine May: Lab
Yes I am.
Helen Eadie: Lab
I am so sorry—I meant Christine Grahame, not Christine May.The response to those questions by Adrian Ward of the Law Society of Scotland was compelling. He s...
Shona Robison: SNP
In which cases would the member think it appropriate to override the views of an adult with capacity who did not want an intervention?
Helen Eadie: Lab
I will return to that point later in my speech. The point was covered by a Mr Graham, a physician who gave evidence to the committee on the bill.Mr Ward cont...
Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green): Green
During the previous session of Parliament, in 2002 to 2003, I tried to have hate crime legislation extended to all the groups that are identified under Europ...
Euan Robson: LD
It should be clear to the minister from the debate that parts 2 to 4 of the bill will not cause him a great deal of difficulty. The interest will focus on pa...