Chamber
Plenary, 09 Nov 2006
09 Nov 2006 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Violence Against Women
As Carolyn Leckie said, this has been a good debate and it has been largely consensual. Perhaps uncharacteristically, I will not seek to break that consensus. I think that we all agree that this is a serious issue. Although one may joke from time to time about how women perhaps have their moments, it would be naive of me to suggest other than that the main problem of violence is men perpetrating it against women. That must be accepted.
I have heard Maureen Macmillan speak on this subject before. She obviously feels strongly about it and has a degree of pride in what has been achieved in the Highlands. That is natural and understandable. We should all congratulate the people she mentioned in the Highlands who have done so much to ease what was clearly a real difficulty.
The debate has been consensual and we intend to vote with the Executive at its conclusion. It is perhaps a little bit unfortunate—although I understand why it is the case—that two amendments, which we do not feel we can support, have been proposed.
Carolyn Leckie's amendment deals with the low conviction rates for rape and sexual offences and expresses justifiable concern about the issue. A report is expected from the Scottish Law Commission on the law of rape. We will have to wait and see what happens when that report is received.
I have to flag up an issue that I regard as a problem. Rape is a crime for which there is not normally corroboration, as required under Scots law, by means of eye witnesses or other forms of evidence. It is a very difficult crime to prove. The conviction rate is undeniably low, but it is important to remember that, when cases go to court, the conviction rate is almost 50 per cent.
The problem is that many cases do not go to court because there is no corroboration and the case cannot go before a jury. Adjusting the law to resolve that problem while still leaving people with a defence will be difficult. Quite properly, there is a presumption of innocence in Scots law. There are people in the chamber this afternoon who have sons and who would be very concerned indeed if one of their sons was wrongly accused of rape and was restricted in the level of defence that he could present.
Part of Carolyn Leckie's complaint, although justified, is largely historical. I do not think that any judge in the High Court of Scotland would permit any witness to be traduced and tormented by counsel defending an alleged attacker, but that certainly has happened. The situation has improved, in no small measure due to the acts of this Parliament.
Rosemary Byrne rightly mentioned the case of Lindsay Armstrong. In that case, our systems did not work. We subsequently changed the systems to ensure, as far as possible, that something similar could never happen again. Rosemary Byrne was also right to point to the educational element. She said that it would be appropriate for schools to participate much more.
Domestic violence has long been a problem. The problem is particularly acute in our cities, and is not restricted to the Highlands. The domestic violence court in Glasgow has been a success: 1,000 people have been prosecuted successfully—although we must also be depressed that so many cases have had to go before the court.
Domestic violence is a very serious issue, not least because it happens in the home. If someone is in fear of being attacked in a bar, in a certain street or at a football ground, the obvious remedy is not to go there, but people cannot avoid going to their home. Several speakers have said that domestic violence frequently occurs in the presence of young children and that it leaves them traumatised. Domestic violence is straightforward bullying that is totally and utterly unacceptable.
Cathie Craigie said that a shamefully low number of domestic violence cases come to court. Again the question of corroboration comes up. The Lord Advocate was here earlier. The Crown would proceed with a case if there was sufficient evidence, but the law of Scotland naturally requires that the evidence be sufficient to convince a sheriff, magistrate or jury that the assault took place, and it is sometimes difficult to get that corroboration.
In a very thoughtful speech, Shiona Baird raised the international dimension. I am sure that we all agree with what she said about RAWA in Afghanistan. That organisation is clearly doing a very great deal. This country has a reasonable record, but Shiona Baird was right to say that we should be pursuing, through the United Nations and all our international contacts, the issue of women who so often find themselves subjected to vicious and evil attacks. In Africa, for example, rape is often used as a weapon.
Although we cannot be complacent while such issues still arise, the Executive and the Parliament can look back with some pride on what has been achieved since 1999. I refer to what we have done with the rules of evidence, although we may have reached the pivotal moment at which we have gone too far and, in so doing, prejudiced the rights of the accused person. That said, under a number of headings, we have made things easier for the victims of crime.
I have heard Maureen Macmillan speak on this subject before. She obviously feels strongly about it and has a degree of pride in what has been achieved in the Highlands. That is natural and understandable. We should all congratulate the people she mentioned in the Highlands who have done so much to ease what was clearly a real difficulty.
The debate has been consensual and we intend to vote with the Executive at its conclusion. It is perhaps a little bit unfortunate—although I understand why it is the case—that two amendments, which we do not feel we can support, have been proposed.
Carolyn Leckie's amendment deals with the low conviction rates for rape and sexual offences and expresses justifiable concern about the issue. A report is expected from the Scottish Law Commission on the law of rape. We will have to wait and see what happens when that report is received.
I have to flag up an issue that I regard as a problem. Rape is a crime for which there is not normally corroboration, as required under Scots law, by means of eye witnesses or other forms of evidence. It is a very difficult crime to prove. The conviction rate is undeniably low, but it is important to remember that, when cases go to court, the conviction rate is almost 50 per cent.
The problem is that many cases do not go to court because there is no corroboration and the case cannot go before a jury. Adjusting the law to resolve that problem while still leaving people with a defence will be difficult. Quite properly, there is a presumption of innocence in Scots law. There are people in the chamber this afternoon who have sons and who would be very concerned indeed if one of their sons was wrongly accused of rape and was restricted in the level of defence that he could present.
Part of Carolyn Leckie's complaint, although justified, is largely historical. I do not think that any judge in the High Court of Scotland would permit any witness to be traduced and tormented by counsel defending an alleged attacker, but that certainly has happened. The situation has improved, in no small measure due to the acts of this Parliament.
Rosemary Byrne rightly mentioned the case of Lindsay Armstrong. In that case, our systems did not work. We subsequently changed the systems to ensure, as far as possible, that something similar could never happen again. Rosemary Byrne was also right to point to the educational element. She said that it would be appropriate for schools to participate much more.
Domestic violence has long been a problem. The problem is particularly acute in our cities, and is not restricted to the Highlands. The domestic violence court in Glasgow has been a success: 1,000 people have been prosecuted successfully—although we must also be depressed that so many cases have had to go before the court.
Domestic violence is a very serious issue, not least because it happens in the home. If someone is in fear of being attacked in a bar, in a certain street or at a football ground, the obvious remedy is not to go there, but people cannot avoid going to their home. Several speakers have said that domestic violence frequently occurs in the presence of young children and that it leaves them traumatised. Domestic violence is straightforward bullying that is totally and utterly unacceptable.
Cathie Craigie said that a shamefully low number of domestic violence cases come to court. Again the question of corroboration comes up. The Lord Advocate was here earlier. The Crown would proceed with a case if there was sufficient evidence, but the law of Scotland naturally requires that the evidence be sufficient to convince a sheriff, magistrate or jury that the assault took place, and it is sometimes difficult to get that corroboration.
In a very thoughtful speech, Shiona Baird raised the international dimension. I am sure that we all agree with what she said about RAWA in Afghanistan. That organisation is clearly doing a very great deal. This country has a reasonable record, but Shiona Baird was right to say that we should be pursuing, through the United Nations and all our international contacts, the issue of women who so often find themselves subjected to vicious and evil attacks. In Africa, for example, rape is often used as a weapon.
Although we cannot be complacent while such issues still arise, the Executive and the Parliament can look back with some pride on what has been achieved since 1999. I refer to what we have done with the rules of evidence, although we may have reached the pivotal moment at which we have gone too far and, in so doing, prejudiced the rights of the accused person. That said, under a number of headings, we have made things easier for the victims of crime.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S2M-5109, in the name of Malcolm Chisholm, on violence against women.
The Minister for Communities (Malcolm Chisholm):
Lab
This is the 16th year of the United Nations campaign of activism to end violence against women, and I am proud that the Parliament is again discussing male v...
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
The minister mentions 600 updated spaces since 2000. I want to get my figures right. From the website of Scottish Women's Aid, I have a figure of 234 refuge ...
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
I am giving the figure of 600 for new, adapted, refurbished or upgraded spaces since 2000. I do not know what the figure of 234 refers to.We are pleased to c...
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I note the terms of the Government's motion and I note the minister's words. We on this side of the chamber will be supporting the motion. The minister did n...
Carolyn Leckie (Central Scotland) (SSP):
SSP
I welcome the debate and I will support the Executive motion—that is a rare occurrence. I congratulate the Minister for Communities and the Deputy Minister f...
Dave Petrie (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
We will be supporting the motion. The fact that many women in Scotland are still facing the horror of domestic abuse is an incredible statistic with Dickensi...
Nora Radcliffe (Gordon) (LD):
LD
In 1999, the United Nations adopted November 25 as the international day for the elimination of violence against women. That violence includes domestic viole...
Cathy Peattie (Falkirk East) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome the motion, which comes in the run-up to the 16 days of activism against gender violence. The 16 days run from 25 November, which is the internatio...
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP):
SSCUP
Does the member agree that we insult men by accusing them of such abuse? The people who commit such crimes—they are crimes—against women are less than men an...
Cathy Peattie:
Lab
I want John Swinburne and other men in the Parliament to say that to the men concerned. The perpetrators are men—in general, it is men who commit such violen...
Shiona Baird (North East Scotland) (Green):
Green
As the motion highlights, we have a great history of women's rights activism in Scotland. This week, I visited the Eighteen and Under centre in Dundee, which...
Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab):
Lab
I refer members to my entry in the register of members' interests. The motion is partly a tribute to the work done by local women's groups over the years to ...
Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP):
SNP
The experience of this man—I am grateful for the opportunity to participate in the debate—as an MSP is probably, alas, not dissimilar to that of others. I th...
Ms Rosemary Byrne (South of Scotland) (Sol):
Sol
I, too, welcome the debate, and congratulate Scottish Women's Aid, and rape crisis centres and other voluntary sector projects on the excellent work that the...
Cathie Craigie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab):
Lab
"She dressed the wrong way." "She walked in the wrong place." "She said the wrong thing." "She was asking for it." Sadly, in certain sections of Scottish soc...
Carolyn Leckie:
SSP
We have had a good discussion this afternoon rather than a debate. One of the best things about it has been that we have not had the ritual of Mike Rumbles t...
Nora Radcliffe:
LD
This has been a passionate, articulate and well-informed debate. I want to continue by quoting from the inaugural professorial lecture that was given in 2001...
Cathy Peattie:
Lab
Does the member think that it is more appropriate to use the phrase "domestic violence" than it is to use the word "abuse"? Although it is abuse, we must rec...
Nora Radcliffe:
LD
I take Cathy Peattie's point, but I refer her to what other members have said about the mental undermining of people. Cathy Peattie's point is well made but ...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
As Carolyn Leckie said, this has been a good debate and it has been largely consensual. Perhaps uncharacteristically, I will not seek to break that consensus...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
I am hoping that Mr Aitken will get to the point of addressing our amendment, which I surmise from his comments the Conservatives will not support. I ask him...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman):
Lab
You should be finishing, Mr Aitken.
Christine Grahame:
SNP
I intervened as he looked as if he was running out of steam.
Bill Aitken:
Con
Clearly, Glasgow has more than its fair share of this type of problem. I fully concede the point. However, from reports that I have received, I understand th...
Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
I concur with everything the Executive has set out in its motion. I am pleased that the debate is being conducted under the heading "Violence Against Women" ...
The Deputy Minister for Communities (Johann Lamont):
Lab
I welcome the opportunity to sum up this very important debate, which reminds us of one of the critical issues that we discuss and have to address.I will rep...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
I thank the minister for that clarification. I was not sure how secure the figures were; they were the best that I could obtain. I am obliged to her for the ...
Johann Lamont:
Lab
I can get back to Christine Grahame on the detail of how the statistics are managed. I agree that there is a challenge for all those who are working to suppo...
John Swinburne:
SSCUP
Does the minister agree that it is surprising that the issue of alcohol has not been raised during today's debate as, often, the pathetic excuses for men who...