Chamber
Plenary, 09 Nov 2006
09 Nov 2006 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Violence Against Women
We have had a good discussion this afternoon rather than a debate. One of the best things about it has been that we have not had the ritual of Mike Rumbles telling us why we should be talking about violence against men. Thankfully, he has had the decency to stay out of the road this time; that is good.
I hope that there will be support for my amendment. A number of changes could still be necessary. It is not just about legislation, but further legislative change would send a message to the police, judges, sheriffs, and defence lawyers that their attitudes and approaches to witnesses are unacceptable. Such attitudes are endemic in our society—that is what we are trying to challenge. Change will have to be effective and measured so that conviction rates can go up. I hope that we can agree that we still need to do that.
I want to shift away from my amendment for a wee while. The discussion has concentrated on the extreme forms of male violence against women such as rape, domestic violence and so on, but a continuum of violence against women is perpetrated by society as a whole—by men and by the systemic structures in which we live. I am particularly concerned that young women today are being absolutely bombarded with messages that encourage them to objectify themselves in order to be valued and to boost their self-esteem. Exploitation of women is proliferating through lap-dancing bars, pole dancing, pornography, film and everything else that is contributing to the enormous pressure on young women in society.
That is all coupled with a regression in consciousness about such issues during the past 20 or 30 years. That was evidenced for me recently when I spoke at two conferences. One was a University of Strathclyde debate on abortion rights, which although it is different to the issue that we are discussing today, is definitely related. When I was making the arguments on that issue and placing it in the context of the situation of women in society and their oppression and inequality, there was actual laughter from a significant section of the audience, as if the battles have been won and I should not be so ridiculous. That is symptomatic of a regression in consciousness.
Perhaps a wee bit of complacency has crept into our society, and perhaps the formal women's movement has become a bit fragmented and more taken up with voluntary organisations. The concept of feminism, which became a dirty word, needs to be recalled, regained and restamped. People who are feminists and socialists, or feminists and whatever else, should be proud to call themselves what they are, because the issue needs to be challenged up front. We need to go on the offensive again.
I welcome some of the legislative changes that are proposed. I believe that people who abuse women through prostitution should be criminalised, but I want to see the women decriminalised and I hope that that is the direction in which our legislation will take us and that we can develop a Swedish-style model for tackling the issue.
We must all be responsible for challenging attitudes on our own doorsteps and in our own organisations and, as everyone knows, we have been through a pretty traumatic time. However, I shall finish on a more negative point. All the progress that has been made to change attitudes and to advance the ideology that underpins the Executive department that is responsible for tackling violence against women is definitely to be welcomed, but change needs to be backed up with resources. I have sympathy with what the SNP amendment says about domestic abuse.
I do not deny Malcolm Chisholm's belief in or commitment to the issues: of all the ministers in the Executive, I probably respect him most. When it comes to delivery and to the equal pay situation in local authorities, the draft budget for local government makes no reference to equal pay, although that is an Executive priority to which the minister has emphasised his commitment. Nevertheless, he does not seem able to bring his influence to bear on the fact that equal pay is the biggest gender equality issue affecting women in Scotland today. A lot still needs to be done and it needs to be backed up with resources. That will be the proof of the pudding.
I hope that there will be support for my amendment. A number of changes could still be necessary. It is not just about legislation, but further legislative change would send a message to the police, judges, sheriffs, and defence lawyers that their attitudes and approaches to witnesses are unacceptable. Such attitudes are endemic in our society—that is what we are trying to challenge. Change will have to be effective and measured so that conviction rates can go up. I hope that we can agree that we still need to do that.
I want to shift away from my amendment for a wee while. The discussion has concentrated on the extreme forms of male violence against women such as rape, domestic violence and so on, but a continuum of violence against women is perpetrated by society as a whole—by men and by the systemic structures in which we live. I am particularly concerned that young women today are being absolutely bombarded with messages that encourage them to objectify themselves in order to be valued and to boost their self-esteem. Exploitation of women is proliferating through lap-dancing bars, pole dancing, pornography, film and everything else that is contributing to the enormous pressure on young women in society.
That is all coupled with a regression in consciousness about such issues during the past 20 or 30 years. That was evidenced for me recently when I spoke at two conferences. One was a University of Strathclyde debate on abortion rights, which although it is different to the issue that we are discussing today, is definitely related. When I was making the arguments on that issue and placing it in the context of the situation of women in society and their oppression and inequality, there was actual laughter from a significant section of the audience, as if the battles have been won and I should not be so ridiculous. That is symptomatic of a regression in consciousness.
Perhaps a wee bit of complacency has crept into our society, and perhaps the formal women's movement has become a bit fragmented and more taken up with voluntary organisations. The concept of feminism, which became a dirty word, needs to be recalled, regained and restamped. People who are feminists and socialists, or feminists and whatever else, should be proud to call themselves what they are, because the issue needs to be challenged up front. We need to go on the offensive again.
I welcome some of the legislative changes that are proposed. I believe that people who abuse women through prostitution should be criminalised, but I want to see the women decriminalised and I hope that that is the direction in which our legislation will take us and that we can develop a Swedish-style model for tackling the issue.
We must all be responsible for challenging attitudes on our own doorsteps and in our own organisations and, as everyone knows, we have been through a pretty traumatic time. However, I shall finish on a more negative point. All the progress that has been made to change attitudes and to advance the ideology that underpins the Executive department that is responsible for tackling violence against women is definitely to be welcomed, but change needs to be backed up with resources. I have sympathy with what the SNP amendment says about domestic abuse.
I do not deny Malcolm Chisholm's belief in or commitment to the issues: of all the ministers in the Executive, I probably respect him most. When it comes to delivery and to the equal pay situation in local authorities, the draft budget for local government makes no reference to equal pay, although that is an Executive priority to which the minister has emphasised his commitment. Nevertheless, he does not seem able to bring his influence to bear on the fact that equal pay is the biggest gender equality issue affecting women in Scotland today. A lot still needs to be done and it needs to be backed up with resources. That will be the proof of the pudding.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S2M-5109, in the name of Malcolm Chisholm, on violence against women.
The Minister for Communities (Malcolm Chisholm):
Lab
This is the 16th year of the United Nations campaign of activism to end violence against women, and I am proud that the Parliament is again discussing male v...
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
The minister mentions 600 updated spaces since 2000. I want to get my figures right. From the website of Scottish Women's Aid, I have a figure of 234 refuge ...
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
I am giving the figure of 600 for new, adapted, refurbished or upgraded spaces since 2000. I do not know what the figure of 234 refers to.We are pleased to c...
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I note the terms of the Government's motion and I note the minister's words. We on this side of the chamber will be supporting the motion. The minister did n...
Carolyn Leckie (Central Scotland) (SSP):
SSP
I welcome the debate and I will support the Executive motion—that is a rare occurrence. I congratulate the Minister for Communities and the Deputy Minister f...
Dave Petrie (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
We will be supporting the motion. The fact that many women in Scotland are still facing the horror of domestic abuse is an incredible statistic with Dickensi...
Nora Radcliffe (Gordon) (LD):
LD
In 1999, the United Nations adopted November 25 as the international day for the elimination of violence against women. That violence includes domestic viole...
Cathy Peattie (Falkirk East) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome the motion, which comes in the run-up to the 16 days of activism against gender violence. The 16 days run from 25 November, which is the internatio...
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP):
SSCUP
Does the member agree that we insult men by accusing them of such abuse? The people who commit such crimes—they are crimes—against women are less than men an...
Cathy Peattie:
Lab
I want John Swinburne and other men in the Parliament to say that to the men concerned. The perpetrators are men—in general, it is men who commit such violen...
Shiona Baird (North East Scotland) (Green):
Green
As the motion highlights, we have a great history of women's rights activism in Scotland. This week, I visited the Eighteen and Under centre in Dundee, which...
Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab):
Lab
I refer members to my entry in the register of members' interests. The motion is partly a tribute to the work done by local women's groups over the years to ...
Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP):
SNP
The experience of this man—I am grateful for the opportunity to participate in the debate—as an MSP is probably, alas, not dissimilar to that of others. I th...
Ms Rosemary Byrne (South of Scotland) (Sol):
Sol
I, too, welcome the debate, and congratulate Scottish Women's Aid, and rape crisis centres and other voluntary sector projects on the excellent work that the...
Cathie Craigie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab):
Lab
"She dressed the wrong way." "She walked in the wrong place." "She said the wrong thing." "She was asking for it." Sadly, in certain sections of Scottish soc...
Carolyn Leckie:
SSP
We have had a good discussion this afternoon rather than a debate. One of the best things about it has been that we have not had the ritual of Mike Rumbles t...
Nora Radcliffe:
LD
This has been a passionate, articulate and well-informed debate. I want to continue by quoting from the inaugural professorial lecture that was given in 2001...
Cathy Peattie:
Lab
Does the member think that it is more appropriate to use the phrase "domestic violence" than it is to use the word "abuse"? Although it is abuse, we must rec...
Nora Radcliffe:
LD
I take Cathy Peattie's point, but I refer her to what other members have said about the mental undermining of people. Cathy Peattie's point is well made but ...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
As Carolyn Leckie said, this has been a good debate and it has been largely consensual. Perhaps uncharacteristically, I will not seek to break that consensus...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
I am hoping that Mr Aitken will get to the point of addressing our amendment, which I surmise from his comments the Conservatives will not support. I ask him...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman):
Lab
You should be finishing, Mr Aitken.
Christine Grahame:
SNP
I intervened as he looked as if he was running out of steam.
Bill Aitken:
Con
Clearly, Glasgow has more than its fair share of this type of problem. I fully concede the point. However, from reports that I have received, I understand th...
Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
I concur with everything the Executive has set out in its motion. I am pleased that the debate is being conducted under the heading "Violence Against Women" ...
The Deputy Minister for Communities (Johann Lamont):
Lab
I welcome the opportunity to sum up this very important debate, which reminds us of one of the critical issues that we discuss and have to address.I will rep...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
I thank the minister for that clarification. I was not sure how secure the figures were; they were the best that I could obtain. I am obliged to her for the ...
Johann Lamont:
Lab
I can get back to Christine Grahame on the detail of how the statistics are managed. I agree that there is a challenge for all those who are working to suppo...
John Swinburne:
SSCUP
Does the minister agree that it is surprising that the issue of alcohol has not been raised during today's debate as, often, the pathetic excuses for men who...