Chamber
Plenary, 26 May 2005
26 May 2005 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
National Health Service<br />(Age Discrimination)
When we see discrimination against older citizens in the NHS, we often see a reflection of broader, societal discrimination against older people. I make no particular criticism of the Executive's policies on discrimination against older people, but I share with all members a concern about the implementation of those policies and the practices of some people in some parts of the NHS.
One of the most moving examples of the contribution to society that people who are nearing the end of their life can make was the art that Rikki Fulton produced in the final few months of his life, when he was suffering from Alzheimer's, which was auctioned recently. That vividly brings home to us that the fact that someone is decaying in their mental or physical abilities does not mean that the inner person or their ability to continue to contribute to wider society is also decaying.
I was interested to note Mike Rumbles's fervent support for the debate. Of course, he is older than Nicol Stephen, so we can understand why he supports there being no discrimination against older people.
The word "discrimination" has been widely used. Carolyn Leckie's amendment says that
"urgent action needs to be taken to remove all forms of age discrimination within the NHS."
Richard Baker used similar language. Even the SNP motion calls for
"an independent inquiry into direct and indirect age discrimination".
All those references to removing discrimination, including that which is made in the SNP motion, are wrong, in the sense that we want discrimination—we want positive discrimination to support old people's issues. I hope that, as the debate draws to a conclusion, widespread agreement on that will emerge. We are talking about adverse discrimination. We must be careful about the shorthand that we use.
In wider society and in the NHS, we must respect the wishes—both negative and positive—of all our citizens. We should take account both of what they want to happen and what they want to avoid. The NHS is an institution that has power over life and death and over the quality of people's life and the quality of their death. Although I have not yet considered the matter in great depth, I would be most concerned if Mr Purvis's bill were to make health professionals party to anything that would appear to accelerate people's deaths. That issue must be examined.
I have a good story about the care of old people that I will share with members. During her final illness, my late mother-in-law received care in St John's hospital in West Lothian that was exceptionally good, to the extent that she was brought a glass of whisky every night so that she would sleep well. It was indeed the water of life—uisge-beatha.
I am dying; I do not know where, when or how I will die, but I know that I am dying. The old gave us the potential to be what we want to be. We must put service to our elderly before our interests and must ensure that we discriminate in favour of the elderly.
One of the most moving examples of the contribution to society that people who are nearing the end of their life can make was the art that Rikki Fulton produced in the final few months of his life, when he was suffering from Alzheimer's, which was auctioned recently. That vividly brings home to us that the fact that someone is decaying in their mental or physical abilities does not mean that the inner person or their ability to continue to contribute to wider society is also decaying.
I was interested to note Mike Rumbles's fervent support for the debate. Of course, he is older than Nicol Stephen, so we can understand why he supports there being no discrimination against older people.
The word "discrimination" has been widely used. Carolyn Leckie's amendment says that
"urgent action needs to be taken to remove all forms of age discrimination within the NHS."
Richard Baker used similar language. Even the SNP motion calls for
"an independent inquiry into direct and indirect age discrimination".
All those references to removing discrimination, including that which is made in the SNP motion, are wrong, in the sense that we want discrimination—we want positive discrimination to support old people's issues. I hope that, as the debate draws to a conclusion, widespread agreement on that will emerge. We are talking about adverse discrimination. We must be careful about the shorthand that we use.
In wider society and in the NHS, we must respect the wishes—both negative and positive—of all our citizens. We should take account both of what they want to happen and what they want to avoid. The NHS is an institution that has power over life and death and over the quality of people's life and the quality of their death. Although I have not yet considered the matter in great depth, I would be most concerned if Mr Purvis's bill were to make health professionals party to anything that would appear to accelerate people's deaths. That issue must be examined.
I have a good story about the care of old people that I will share with members. During her final illness, my late mother-in-law received care in St John's hospital in West Lothian that was exceptionally good, to the extent that she was brought a glass of whisky every night so that she would sleep well. It was indeed the water of life—uisge-beatha.
I am dying; I do not know where, when or how I will die, but I know that I am dying. The old gave us the potential to be what we want to be. We must put service to our elderly before our interests and must ensure that we discriminate in favour of the elderly.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Murray Tosh):
Con
We move, rather behind the clock, to the next item of business, which is a debate on motion S2M-2861, in the name of Shona Robison, on age discrimination in ...
Shona Robison (Dundee East) (SNP):
SNP
I thank the many families throughout Scotland that have written to me about the experience of their elderly relatives. It is because of their concerns that t...
The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care (Rhona Brankin):
Lab
I welcome today's debate on the standards of care for older people in the NHS. We have published standards that are both high and equitable and we all expect...
Shona Robison:
SNP
I accept, as I am sure the minister does, that there are lots of documents that say what should be done. However, does she agree that the problem is that wha...
Rhona Brankin:
Lab
Clearly, there is no point in having standards if we do not ensure that those standards are met. That is the challenge that we face. NHS QIS was established ...
Mrs Nanette Milne (North East Scotland) (Con):
Con
Today's debate comes at an appropriate time in the wake of yesterday's publication of the Kerr report, which indicates a way forward for the NHS for the next...
Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
LD
Coming a day after the publication of Professor David Kerr's report, this debate is opportune. After all, Professor Kerr's very first proposal is for"All NHS...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
We now come to the open debate. Time is very tight indeed and I ask members to make speeches of strictly four minutes.
Mr Stewart Maxwell (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
It is a sad day when, despite the hard work of many decent and caring staff in the service, we have to debate the indignity and lack of care that some older ...
Carolyn Leckie (Central Scotland) (SSP):
SSP
It is absolutely right that we should have a debate about age discrimination in the NHS. It is well known that the NHS is plagued with inequalities and has b...
Richard Baker (North East Scotland) (Lab):
Lab
The provision of a high standard of health care is important to everyone in Scotland but particularly to our older people. The starting point for this debate...
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Richard Baker:
Lab
I am sorry, but I have only four minutes.Older people are the most frequent users of NHS services. Day in and day out, hundreds of thousands of older people ...
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP):
SSCUP
I welcome the debate on Shona Robison's motion. Sadly, it reflects the lack of basic respect for the elderly that exists in our society and which manifests i...
Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP):
SNP
When we see discrimination against older citizens in the NHS, we often see a reflection of broader, societal discrimination against older people. I make no p...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab):
Lab
In 25 years' time, there will be more people of retirement age in Scotland than there will be children. The biggest growth will be in the number of people wh...
Eleanor Scott (Highlands and Islands) (Green):
Green
Two separate and yet connected issues have been referred to in the debate: age discrimination and neglect of the elderly. As various members have pointed out...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman):
Lab
We move to winding-up speeches. I call Donald Gorrie and advise him that he has a tight four minutes.
Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD):
LD
I apologise for missing the first part of the debate. The pressure on members in trying to get agreement on amendments to legislation is unrelenting. There a...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
You must finish now, Mr Gorrie.
Donald Gorrie:
LD
That would help to reduce the problem and change people's attitude. They would see how much older people can contribute.
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
It is sad indeed that we are discussing problems relating to the elderly, given the number of debates that we have held in the Parliament and the amount of l...
Rhona Brankin:
Lab
We have all listened carefully to the debate. The issue is emotive and hugely important and, as I said in my opening speech, there is absolutely no room for ...
Mary Scanlon:
Con
Will the minister give way?
Rhona Brankin:
Lab
I am sorry, but I do not have time.Let me respond to some specific points that were raised in the debate. Shona Robison referred to "Frontline Scotland" and ...
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
First, I make it clear that Ms Robison has given her excuses to the Presiding Officer for not being here for the conclusion of the debate.I preface my main r...
Stewart Stevenson:
SNP
Surely not.
Christine Grahame:
SNP
They are as quirky as Andy Kerr and they are as different as Stewart Stevenson. By the way, he has now delivered his 200th speech. I do not know whether to w...