Chamber
Plenary, 17 Mar 2005
17 Mar 2005 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Protection of Children and Prevention of Sexual Offences (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I rise to speak for the second time this afternoon. The minister rightly pointed to the emotional damage that is done to children and, correctly, flagged up the courage of the parents of children who are involved in incidents of sexual abuse or, indeed, murder.
In a thoroughly heavyweight contribution, Stewart Stevenson very nicely drew out the nature of the problem. His description of the fake person—Linda, aged 13—and of how people went online as quickly as they did should be a lesson to us all. That point was well made. He also made the point that gratification can be gained from the grooming process. That, too, we shall bear in mind as we move to stage 2.
I thank Margaret Mitchell both for her warm welcome for the bill and for the fact that she echoed my remarks about the possible impact of risk of sexual harm orders on innocent people. I will return to that subject in due course.
Mary Mulligan, correctly, referred to grooming. In a thoughtful contribution, Annabel Goldie, who is still in the chamber, talked about the writ and the technicalities of the production of evidence. I am no legal expert, but I think that what she said was crucial. We must get the mechanics of the bill right. If we do not, we could enact fundamentally flawed legislation. Let us face it—on an issue as grave as this, the legislation must be copper-bottomed and cast iron. It has to work all the way.
There was a good speech from Pauline McNeill, and Jeremy Purvis's reference to the age issue was absolutely correct. There were also thoughtful contributions from Stewart Maxwell, Helen Eadie and Patrick Harvie.
We have just heard Patrick Harvie's speech. I am not quite sure that I follow his argument about sex education and the ramifications of the risk of sexual harm orders; however, I am sure that we will hear more from him at stages 2 and 3. I have been impressed by my colleagues on the Justice 1 Committee, who are all more able than I am, and I am sure that we will all have open minds. Mindful of what I have just said about it being crucial that we get the legislation right, we should consider every point, including that which Patrick Harvie made. Nevertheless, he will have to do some slight legwork to persuade me of the connection that he referred to. I hope that all right-thinking people will see the importance of sex education; however, if he has an argument, we will consider it.
I am keeping tight to time, as you requested, Presiding Officer.
I am fortunate because my childhood was a happy one. Those of us who had none of the experiences that we have heard about have everything to be grateful for. We could all, however, put ourselves in the position of people to whom something happened that blighted their life and left them with a memory of the experience. Constituents in their 60s and 70s who were abused as children have come to see me, and their stories are harrowing. I get down and thank the good Lord that what happened to them did not happen to me and does not happen often to other children—nonetheless, it does happen.
Members have talked about the accidental blackening of an innocent person's name, and there is a risk that that could happen. As a child, I was warned not to get into a stranger's car—as kids, we were all told not to do that. When I was a kid, we did not have a car but, eventually, we had a van, when my father had made enough of a certain dairy substance that I am not allowed to mention in the chamber.
In a thoroughly heavyweight contribution, Stewart Stevenson very nicely drew out the nature of the problem. His description of the fake person—Linda, aged 13—and of how people went online as quickly as they did should be a lesson to us all. That point was well made. He also made the point that gratification can be gained from the grooming process. That, too, we shall bear in mind as we move to stage 2.
I thank Margaret Mitchell both for her warm welcome for the bill and for the fact that she echoed my remarks about the possible impact of risk of sexual harm orders on innocent people. I will return to that subject in due course.
Mary Mulligan, correctly, referred to grooming. In a thoughtful contribution, Annabel Goldie, who is still in the chamber, talked about the writ and the technicalities of the production of evidence. I am no legal expert, but I think that what she said was crucial. We must get the mechanics of the bill right. If we do not, we could enact fundamentally flawed legislation. Let us face it—on an issue as grave as this, the legislation must be copper-bottomed and cast iron. It has to work all the way.
There was a good speech from Pauline McNeill, and Jeremy Purvis's reference to the age issue was absolutely correct. There were also thoughtful contributions from Stewart Maxwell, Helen Eadie and Patrick Harvie.
We have just heard Patrick Harvie's speech. I am not quite sure that I follow his argument about sex education and the ramifications of the risk of sexual harm orders; however, I am sure that we will hear more from him at stages 2 and 3. I have been impressed by my colleagues on the Justice 1 Committee, who are all more able than I am, and I am sure that we will all have open minds. Mindful of what I have just said about it being crucial that we get the legislation right, we should consider every point, including that which Patrick Harvie made. Nevertheless, he will have to do some slight legwork to persuade me of the connection that he referred to. I hope that all right-thinking people will see the importance of sex education; however, if he has an argument, we will consider it.
I am keeping tight to time, as you requested, Presiding Officer.
I am fortunate because my childhood was a happy one. Those of us who had none of the experiences that we have heard about have everything to be grateful for. We could all, however, put ourselves in the position of people to whom something happened that blighted their life and left them with a memory of the experience. Constituents in their 60s and 70s who were abused as children have come to see me, and their stories are harrowing. I get down and thank the good Lord that what happened to them did not happen to me and does not happen often to other children—nonetheless, it does happen.
Members have talked about the accidental blackening of an innocent person's name, and there is a risk that that could happen. As a child, I was warned not to get into a stranger's car—as kids, we were all told not to do that. When I was a kid, we did not have a car but, eventually, we had a van, when my father had made enough of a certain dairy substance that I am not allowed to mention in the chamber.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Murray Tosh):
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S2M-2353, in the name of Cathy Jamieson, on the Protection of Children and Prevention of Sexual Offences (Sco...
The Minister for Justice (Cathy Jamieson):
Lab
There is no doubt that any offence that involves harm being done to a child is despicable, but it is hard to imagine anything more despicable than sexual off...
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Evidence from the Association of Scottish Police Superintendents, or possibly it was from the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland, raised the co...
Cathy Jamieson:
Lab
A number of issues are involved, including the definitions of a child and an adult. We will come to those issues during the debate and when we examine the bi...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con):
Con
Will the minister give way?
Cathy Jamieson:
Lab
I am sorry, but I must move on.The order will require the offender to stay away from the people or places that are associated with previous offending or, for...
Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP):
SNP
The Scottish National Party will support the general principles of the bill at decision time. A reading of the introduction to the bill leads me to say that ...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con):
Con
A number of times when a bill has been introduced, I have questioned its value or opposed it outright on the grounds that it is unnecessary or counterproduct...
Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD):
LD
As I joined the Justice 1 Committee only recently, my comments will be largely from my viewpoint.It is, first and foremost, in the interests of society to ca...
Mrs Mary Mulligan (Linlithgow) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome the Protection of Children and Prevention of Sexual Offences (Scotland) Bill. Unfortunately, there are people who are using the opportunities that ...
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
This is tricky legislation to get right. The definition in section 1 uses the phrase "having met or communicated", but it seems to me that the debate is circ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman):
Lab
I call Pauline McNeill, who will be followed by Jeremy Purvis. I apologise. I call Annabel Goldie, who will be followed by Pauline McNeill.
Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con):
Con
Pauline McNeill's fright was nothing compared to mine.It has been said that the Conservative party welcomes the general principles of the bill. In an increas...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab):
Lab
I begin by thanking the Justice 1 Committee, the clerks, the bill team and the Deputy Minister for Justice for the work that they have all done in putting to...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
You have one minute.
Pauline McNeill:
Lab
The age question was a very difficult issue for the committee. As it stands, the bill will apply to persons aged 18 and over. The committee recommended that ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
You must wind up now, Ms McNeill.
Pauline McNeill:
Lab
As Mary Mulligan said, it is not helpful to compare an RSHO with an ASBO, given the massive stigma that will be attached to the former. We must get right the...
Jeremy Purvis (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD):
LD
As my colleague Jamie Stone said, the Liberal Democrats will support the general principles of the bill. In my view, the sober nature of this afternoon's deb...
Mr Stewart Maxwell (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I welcome the bill. The legislation is overdue and the SNP will certainly support the bill's general principles this evening. Although other members have cov...
Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome the debate on the general principles of the Protection of Children and Prevention of Sexual Offences (Scotland) Bill. Like members who have spoken ...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green):
Green
All of us in the chamber recognise the importance of getting child protection right. The minister used the word "despicable" earlier in the debate to describ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
We move to winding-up speeches and I call Jamie Stone. Mr Stone, you have a tight four minutes.
Mr Stone:
LD
I rise to speak for the second time this afternoon. The minister rightly pointed to the emotional damage that is done to children and, correctly, flagged up ...
Members:
Cheese!
Mr Stone:
LD
I remember, as a wee boy, sitting in our knackered—is that parliamentary language? Perhaps not. I remember sitting in our battered old van when, suddenly and...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
The debate is predicated—as, indeed, is the legislation—on the basic concept that the abuse and exploitation of children for sexual purposes are abhorrent to...
Mr Bruce McFee (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
The debate has shown that, although the bill is relatively short, it impacts on a wide and complex range of issues. As the stage 1 report points out, the com...
The Deputy Minister for Justice (Hugh Henry):
Lab
The encouraging part of today's debate was the will that exists across Parliament for further measures to be taken to give added protection to young people, ...
The Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
NPA
Briefly, please. You have about another minute, minister.