Chamber
Plenary, 17 Mar 2005
17 Mar 2005 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Protection of Children and Prevention of Sexual Offences (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I begin by thanking the Justice 1 Committee, the clerks, the bill team and the Deputy Minister for Justice for the work that they have all done in putting together a constructive report.
As other members have said, there are few priorities higher than to protect children from harm. We already have good law in Scotland that can deal with prosecuting crime against children and the bill is designed to be an addition to that law, to plug its gaps and to update it to take account of circumstances that we face in the 21st century. The Justice 1 Committee believes that, as it stands, the bill needs to be changed, but we support the general principles.
It is important to note that the new offence that will be created by section 1 of the bill is designed to criminalise preparation for commission of a more serious crime. In itself, the crime is committed where it can be inferred that one of a number of sexual offences would be committed by an adult's travelling to meet a child. It is very important to know that that is the act that must be criminalised.
The committee has made it clear that it thinks that the earlier aspect of that criminal behaviour needs to be addressed. It is important to note that the offence, which is not termed as grooming—I suggest that it is grooming-plus—is the more important of the offences, although there is a gap that needs to be plugged.
One of the most striking aspects of the evidence on exploitation of children on the internet is that it is more colossal than any of us imagined. The nature of the internet is such that it invites children to give out a great deal of personal information. If members ever use MSN Messenger they will see that it asks children to say who they are and where they gather. That information is on the internet and dangerous adults are using it to exploit children in ways that we do not want to imagine.
It is important to note that the national hi-tech crime unit that was recently formed under the Scottish Drug Enforcement Agency has three officers who are authorised to go on the internet and pose as children to get the required intelligence. The most important thing that we would all like to know is that we have the resources to intercept adults before a crime is committed. It is vital that we get resources to that unit as well as ensure that the law is right.
The committee is concerned that the bill catches only part of the criminal behaviour, so it is important for us to consider how to properly criminalise inappropriate sexual conduct, or the actual grooming of a child. Our solution is to ask the Executive to consider whether an adult who is prosecuted under the breach of the peace law—which is the law that is currently used to prosecute such adults—could be clearly specified as an offender on the sex offenders register. As a result of the Cosgrove report, sheriffs and judges have the discretion to use the existing law where there is a sexual element to a crime. There has been no response from the minister on that, so I wonder what the initial view is.
As other members have said, there are few priorities higher than to protect children from harm. We already have good law in Scotland that can deal with prosecuting crime against children and the bill is designed to be an addition to that law, to plug its gaps and to update it to take account of circumstances that we face in the 21st century. The Justice 1 Committee believes that, as it stands, the bill needs to be changed, but we support the general principles.
It is important to note that the new offence that will be created by section 1 of the bill is designed to criminalise preparation for commission of a more serious crime. In itself, the crime is committed where it can be inferred that one of a number of sexual offences would be committed by an adult's travelling to meet a child. It is very important to know that that is the act that must be criminalised.
The committee has made it clear that it thinks that the earlier aspect of that criminal behaviour needs to be addressed. It is important to note that the offence, which is not termed as grooming—I suggest that it is grooming-plus—is the more important of the offences, although there is a gap that needs to be plugged.
One of the most striking aspects of the evidence on exploitation of children on the internet is that it is more colossal than any of us imagined. The nature of the internet is such that it invites children to give out a great deal of personal information. If members ever use MSN Messenger they will see that it asks children to say who they are and where they gather. That information is on the internet and dangerous adults are using it to exploit children in ways that we do not want to imagine.
It is important to note that the national hi-tech crime unit that was recently formed under the Scottish Drug Enforcement Agency has three officers who are authorised to go on the internet and pose as children to get the required intelligence. The most important thing that we would all like to know is that we have the resources to intercept adults before a crime is committed. It is vital that we get resources to that unit as well as ensure that the law is right.
The committee is concerned that the bill catches only part of the criminal behaviour, so it is important for us to consider how to properly criminalise inappropriate sexual conduct, or the actual grooming of a child. Our solution is to ask the Executive to consider whether an adult who is prosecuted under the breach of the peace law—which is the law that is currently used to prosecute such adults—could be clearly specified as an offender on the sex offenders register. As a result of the Cosgrove report, sheriffs and judges have the discretion to use the existing law where there is a sexual element to a crime. There has been no response from the minister on that, so I wonder what the initial view is.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Murray Tosh):
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S2M-2353, in the name of Cathy Jamieson, on the Protection of Children and Prevention of Sexual Offences (Sco...
The Minister for Justice (Cathy Jamieson):
Lab
There is no doubt that any offence that involves harm being done to a child is despicable, but it is hard to imagine anything more despicable than sexual off...
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Evidence from the Association of Scottish Police Superintendents, or possibly it was from the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland, raised the co...
Cathy Jamieson:
Lab
A number of issues are involved, including the definitions of a child and an adult. We will come to those issues during the debate and when we examine the bi...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con):
Con
Will the minister give way?
Cathy Jamieson:
Lab
I am sorry, but I must move on.The order will require the offender to stay away from the people or places that are associated with previous offending or, for...
Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP):
SNP
The Scottish National Party will support the general principles of the bill at decision time. A reading of the introduction to the bill leads me to say that ...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con):
Con
A number of times when a bill has been introduced, I have questioned its value or opposed it outright on the grounds that it is unnecessary or counterproduct...
Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD):
LD
As I joined the Justice 1 Committee only recently, my comments will be largely from my viewpoint.It is, first and foremost, in the interests of society to ca...
Mrs Mary Mulligan (Linlithgow) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome the Protection of Children and Prevention of Sexual Offences (Scotland) Bill. Unfortunately, there are people who are using the opportunities that ...
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
This is tricky legislation to get right. The definition in section 1 uses the phrase "having met or communicated", but it seems to me that the debate is circ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman):
Lab
I call Pauline McNeill, who will be followed by Jeremy Purvis. I apologise. I call Annabel Goldie, who will be followed by Pauline McNeill.
Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con):
Con
Pauline McNeill's fright was nothing compared to mine.It has been said that the Conservative party welcomes the general principles of the bill. In an increas...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab):
Lab
I begin by thanking the Justice 1 Committee, the clerks, the bill team and the Deputy Minister for Justice for the work that they have all done in putting to...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
You have one minute.
Pauline McNeill:
Lab
The age question was a very difficult issue for the committee. As it stands, the bill will apply to persons aged 18 and over. The committee recommended that ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
You must wind up now, Ms McNeill.
Pauline McNeill:
Lab
As Mary Mulligan said, it is not helpful to compare an RSHO with an ASBO, given the massive stigma that will be attached to the former. We must get right the...
Jeremy Purvis (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD):
LD
As my colleague Jamie Stone said, the Liberal Democrats will support the general principles of the bill. In my view, the sober nature of this afternoon's deb...
Mr Stewart Maxwell (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I welcome the bill. The legislation is overdue and the SNP will certainly support the bill's general principles this evening. Although other members have cov...
Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome the debate on the general principles of the Protection of Children and Prevention of Sexual Offences (Scotland) Bill. Like members who have spoken ...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green):
Green
All of us in the chamber recognise the importance of getting child protection right. The minister used the word "despicable" earlier in the debate to describ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
We move to winding-up speeches and I call Jamie Stone. Mr Stone, you have a tight four minutes.
Mr Stone:
LD
I rise to speak for the second time this afternoon. The minister rightly pointed to the emotional damage that is done to children and, correctly, flagged up ...
Members:
Cheese!
Mr Stone:
LD
I remember, as a wee boy, sitting in our knackered—is that parliamentary language? Perhaps not. I remember sitting in our battered old van when, suddenly and...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
The debate is predicated—as, indeed, is the legislation—on the basic concept that the abuse and exploitation of children for sexual purposes are abhorrent to...
Mr Bruce McFee (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
The debate has shown that, although the bill is relatively short, it impacts on a wide and complex range of issues. As the stage 1 report points out, the com...
The Deputy Minister for Justice (Hugh Henry):
Lab
The encouraging part of today's debate was the will that exists across Parliament for further measures to be taken to give added protection to young people, ...
The Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
NPA
Briefly, please. You have about another minute, minister.