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Plenary, 18 Nov 2004

18 Nov 2004 · S2 · Plenary

Item of business

Fire (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Macmillan, Maureen Lab Highlands and Islands Watch on SPTV

I am glad of that assurance, as I hope others will be.

The Mott MacDonald report has, as the minister knows, caused anxiety in most brigade areas. I ask the minister to consider not just the cost savings but the impact of any changes on communities and the complex nature of the work that is carried out in the control rooms. I am glad of his assurance that there will be further consultation. I recently visited the fire service control room in Inverness and was impressed by the sophistication of the logistics that are involved in deploying rescue vehicles, not to mention the way in which continuous communication is maintained with the firefighters and members of the public who are involved or even trapped in a fire situation. We must recognise that control rooms are not just call centres but carry out a great deal of sophisticated work.

In its evidence to the Justice 2 Committee, the FBU raised concerns about the interpretation of definitions of employer-employed relationships and the complexity of the drafting that would be needed to ensure that the bill married with UK legislation on fire safety. The FBU and the Scottish Trades Union Congress also expressed concern about a possible interpretation of section 67, which they felt could mean curtailing workers' rights. The Executive has written to the committee, addressing those concerns and affirming that section 67 does not bear the interpretation that is feared by the trade union movement. However, it is obviously an instance of lawyers eyeballing one another. I urge the Executive to meet the trade unions to discuss the matter further and, if any way can be found to clarify the language that is used in the bill to their mutual satisfaction, to lodge amendments at stage 2.

Two seemingly minor points caused a great deal of discussion, one of which has been raised already. First, could off-duty policemen act as volunteer firefighters? There is a ban on that at the moment and the bill continues that ban. It is an anomaly that an off-duty policeman can be a volunteer in a mountain rescue team or on a lifeboat but cannot turn out for a small, rural fire brigade. It is doubtful that allowing that would make much difference to recruitment figures—we received conflicting evidence on that—but some of the small brigades are having difficulty attracting personnel. Will the minister examine the matter and consider whether the decision to allow an off-duty policeman to volunteer for the local fire brigade could be decided on a case-by-case basis, with the application being made to the appropriate police authority, rather than it being written into law that that can never happen.

Secondly, there is a point of irritation over who should pay for the upkeep of fire hydrants. At present, that is the fire service's responsibility, but it wishes that it was not. It wants the responsibility to be transferred to Scottish Water, although that could have financial implications for water customers. In evidence taking on the Water Services etc (Scotland) Bill, I was told that the vandalism of fire hydrants costs the fire service £1 million a year. It is no wonder that neither the fire service nor Scottish Water wants to foot that bill. Does the Executive take that £1 million cost into account in funding the fire and rescue service? The issue seems to be one of antisocial behaviour and I urge the Executive to consider how it might be dealt with through the Antisocial Behaviour etc (Scotland) Act 2004.

Although this is a time of uncertainty for the fire and rescue service, with some rural brigades in the north awaiting their fate under the integrated risk management plans, I am confident that the bill will give us the modern fire service that we need for the 21st century.

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Plenary, 18 Nov 2004

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