Chamber
Plenary, 18 Nov 2004
18 Nov 2004 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Fire (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
That is my interpretation of it. There was considerable discussion of the matter in the committee, and we must take a view. That is my view of the bill as it stands.
Section 1 has a robust statement on whom the minister must consult before amalgamation. Apart from Annabel Goldie and Stewart Maxwell, the committee was content with the power but sought assurance that
"the consultation will be comprehensive and transparent and will include all interested parties."
The concern about the section revolves around the number of fire control rooms and whether a reduction would lead to fewer brigades. That is by no means certain. I know that any reduction in local accountability would be contested by all parties in the fire service and would be hotly contested by MSPs.
The Mott MacDonald review concluded that a reduction in control rooms would be advantageous. However, the question is, from eight to what? Members of the committee noted that having one control room was feasible—we had evidence of that—but we all thought that that was not desirable.
I turn to two other areas of the bill: charging and the water supply. I have always believed that fire brigades should charge, when appropriate, and the minister has made reference to that today. It is important that brigades can charge and recover costs for such things as the training and services that they provide to businesses and others. The Finance Committee was concerned about the loss of income from fire certificates and in our report we have asked for any loss of income to be compensated for.
It seems that all bills have to have at least one area that causes some amusement during the taking of evidence. In this case, it was all about water hydrants. The Chief Fire Officers Association enlightened us all by telling us that fire hydrants are used on only a few occasions, and the evidence to the committee was that the responsibility for the seldom-used hydrants should be passed to the water authority. I am sure that the water authority will not like that, but there is merit in that suggestion. I note what the minister has said on the subject already and I invite him to reflect on the evidence that we have been given.
I want briefly to refer to HMOs. As a councillor, I worked on the regulatory committee of the City of Edinburgh Council for several years, and I always felt that it was right to approach HMOs in a multi-agency way, whereby everybody was able to have an input and reports were received from everybody who was involved. It was often the fire officer who led that discussion. I still think that that is the way forward.
I conclude with a question on which there was some discussion in the committee. When is a police officer not a police officer, and if someone is disguised as a firefighter, should he not be charged for impersonation, as he would be if he were impersonating a police officer? I look forward to the minister clarifying that small but important issue.
I am confident in and content with the Fire (Scotland) Bill at stage 1 and I recommend that the Parliament agree to its general principles.
Section 1 has a robust statement on whom the minister must consult before amalgamation. Apart from Annabel Goldie and Stewart Maxwell, the committee was content with the power but sought assurance that
"the consultation will be comprehensive and transparent and will include all interested parties."
The concern about the section revolves around the number of fire control rooms and whether a reduction would lead to fewer brigades. That is by no means certain. I know that any reduction in local accountability would be contested by all parties in the fire service and would be hotly contested by MSPs.
The Mott MacDonald review concluded that a reduction in control rooms would be advantageous. However, the question is, from eight to what? Members of the committee noted that having one control room was feasible—we had evidence of that—but we all thought that that was not desirable.
I turn to two other areas of the bill: charging and the water supply. I have always believed that fire brigades should charge, when appropriate, and the minister has made reference to that today. It is important that brigades can charge and recover costs for such things as the training and services that they provide to businesses and others. The Finance Committee was concerned about the loss of income from fire certificates and in our report we have asked for any loss of income to be compensated for.
It seems that all bills have to have at least one area that causes some amusement during the taking of evidence. In this case, it was all about water hydrants. The Chief Fire Officers Association enlightened us all by telling us that fire hydrants are used on only a few occasions, and the evidence to the committee was that the responsibility for the seldom-used hydrants should be passed to the water authority. I am sure that the water authority will not like that, but there is merit in that suggestion. I note what the minister has said on the subject already and I invite him to reflect on the evidence that we have been given.
I want briefly to refer to HMOs. As a councillor, I worked on the regulatory committee of the City of Edinburgh Council for several years, and I always felt that it was right to approach HMOs in a multi-agency way, whereby everybody was able to have an input and reports were received from everybody who was involved. It was often the fire officer who led that discussion. I still think that that is the way forward.
I conclude with a question on which there was some discussion in the committee. When is a police officer not a police officer, and if someone is disguised as a firefighter, should he not be charged for impersonation, as he would be if he were impersonating a police officer? I look forward to the minister clarifying that small but important issue.
I am confident in and content with the Fire (Scotland) Bill at stage 1 and I recommend that the Parliament agree to its general principles.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
NPA
Good morning. The first item of business is a debate on motion S2M-1960, in the name of Cathy Jamieson, that the general principles of the Fire (Scotland) Bi...
The Deputy Minister for Justice (Hugh Henry):
Lab
I am delighted to open the debate on the general principles of the Fire (Scotland) Bill on behalf of the Executive. Our partnership agreement gave a commitme...
Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP):
SNP
Some of members' unease might be to do with the possibility of that power being used to reduce the number of fire control rooms around Scotland, a proposal t...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
I will deal with the issue of fire control rooms in a minute; if I may, I will stick to amalgamation.The power to amalgamate fire authorities has existed sin...
Mr Stewart Maxwell (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Does the minister understand that the unease that is shared by members of different parties and by many people outside the Parliament concerns the fact that ...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
There is no intention to rule by diktat. Any action that the Executive took on any such issues would follow thorough consultation and full discussion. We hav...
Bill Butler (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab):
Lab
There has been a great deal of interest in, and some controversy about, the discussion on the future number of control rooms. I accept some of the assurances...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
I would be happy to do that. It is my intention that, after we have reflected on the comments that have been made and done further work on the calculations, ...
Shona Robison (Dundee East) (SNP):
SNP
The minister mentioned that 23 of the 32 local authorities came down on the side of having three control rooms. The question that Mott MacDonald asked was wh...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
No, I do not, because a number of the responses argued for the status quo. The issue now is whether we are prepared to do further work and give the matter fu...
Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP):
SNP
I thank the minister for his clarification of many points and for the tenor and tone of his speech. The fire service has served Scotland and her communities ...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
I hope that Mr MacAskill recognises that, as I explained to the committee, only one of the powers that he refers to—that of emergency direction—is exercisabl...
Mr MacAskill:
SNP
I accept that and welcome the tenor of the minister's words. However, the devil is in the detail and we must ask further questions about the use of ministeri...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
Kenny MacAskill has indicated that others in his party will comment on the issue of fire control rooms at some length, but I must point out that the bill is ...
Mr MacAskill:
SNP
The minister's words are factually correct, but many members of the public and many members in this chamber—not just those in my party—are concerned about th...
Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con):
Con
I take this opportunity to thank my fellow committee members, the clerks to the Justice 2 Committee and the witnesses who gave evidence during the stage 1 pr...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
I am baffled and would welcome further discussion with Annabel Goldie about exactly how the situation would change. The power has existed since 1947. All we ...
Miss Goldie:
Con
That is the nub of the disagreement between us. My reading of the bill is that it will provide for a ministerial power that could be instigated by the minist...
Mike Pringle (Edinburgh South) (LD):
LD
I, too, welcome the opportunity to take part in this debate on the stage 1 report on the Fire (Scotland) Bill.A considerable amount of evidence was given to ...
Miss Goldie:
Con
If that is the member's understanding of the situation, will he confirm that that is what section 2(1) says?
Mike Pringle:
LD
That is my interpretation of it. There was considerable discussion of the matter in the committee, and we must take a view. That is my view of the bill as it...
Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab):
Lab
The fire and rescue services—especially the local brigades—are held in high regard by the people of Scotland. The area that I represent has only one full-tim...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
Maureen Macmillan's point relates to an issue that was also raised by Kenny MacAskill. Section 45 clearly states that any negotiating body should include rep...
Maureen Macmillan:
Lab
I am glad of that assurance, as I hope others will be.The Mott MacDonald report has, as the minister knows, caused anxiety in most brigade areas. I ask the m...
Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
I know that my colleagues will elaborate on this point, but listening to what the minister had to say about the reduction in the number of control rooms, I s...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
Will the member tell us how many local authorities are represented by those three brigades?
Ms White:
SNP
I was just about to say that the three fire brigades or authorities that indicated that three control rooms would be their preferred option represent 23 loca...
Colin Fox (Lothians) (SSP):
SSP
Two years ago today, the first national fire strike in 25 years began. I was on the picket line at Liberton fire station in Edinburgh. Little did I realise t...
Bill Butler (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab):
Lab
As a new member of the Justice 2 Committee, I did not have the opportunity to take part in any of the evidence sessions, but I nevertheless welcome the oppor...
Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
I heard what the member said about having a single control room, but what is his view on the prospect of having three control rooms?