Chamber
Plenary, 12 Feb 2004
12 Feb 2004 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Sewage Dumping
I thank the Deputy Minister for Environment and Rural Development for his permission for me to say a few words on a constituency matter. The village of Newcastleton, which is in my constituency, has been mentioned several times this evening. The issue of the spreading of waste on forestry land first came to my attention last November, and I have been in correspondence and discussion with SEPA since. To put the record straight, SEPA has been on site on at least three occasions, if not more, and I think that two of its visits were completely unannounced. SEPA has reported to me that it is "satisfied" with the operation of the site at Hewisbridge which, although not very remote, is still remote, in particular from Newcastleton and from immediate human habitation. The nearest inhabited building is a holiday home.
SEPA has involved itself and Scottish Borders Council in the issue. SEPA stated in a letter to me in November:
"it has been confirmed to SEPA that the sludge is not ‘raw'",
as has been claimed in a number of places.
The letter goes on to say that the sludge
"has been treated to reduce the number of viable pathogens and is regularly sampled for metal content. It is worth noting that such material can also be legally spread on agricultural land in accordance with the pertinent legislation … the risks to human and animal health are considered to be low and the overall benefits of re-using/recovering the sludge outweigh any localised and temporary detrimental effects."
Scottish Borders Council informed me that its advice from SEPA was similar. It stated that the smell of the sludge at the site in question
"cannot be deemed a nuisance in terms of Section 80 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990."
That said, there are some areas of legislation that need to be examined and I am grateful to the minister for his help in identifying those in recent correspondence. I appreciate his remarks and his assistance.
To echo what Karen Gillon said earlier, the matter has to be addressed in a measured manner. One does not wish to heighten alarm among one's constituents, but there are pertinent issues involved. The first is prior consultation. It would be enormously helpful to consider ways in which to involve communities in the relevant decisions, so that some of the fears that are spread about could be removed. That would help to address some issues that have been raised in Newcastleton. A large volume of forestry traffic already goes through the village and to add to that traffic would present a difficulty. Therefore, the routing of vehicles to any site is a particularly important consideration.
There are other issues in respect of the treatment of odour on vehicles, on which there appears to be a gap in the regulatory regime. When material is being transported—if it has to be transported—it should be treated. One of the interesting things that constituents have told me is that the odour tends to come from the empty wagons, presumably because treatment takes place only for full wagons. Those detailed points need very much to be investigated.
I return to the importance of prior consultation, which would make it possible to explain to people what is happening. One of the issues that was raised in Newcastleton was how long the consultation would take. From discussions with the company involved, I have found out that the first phase will be over later this month or early next month. I am now discussing with the company what might happen in the future.
The issue is difficult and can be emotive. It is important that small remote communities in particular are not left to deal with such issues by themselves. Prior consultation would be immensely helpful, particularly in relation to work on potential sites.
SEPA has involved itself and Scottish Borders Council in the issue. SEPA stated in a letter to me in November:
"it has been confirmed to SEPA that the sludge is not ‘raw'",
as has been claimed in a number of places.
The letter goes on to say that the sludge
"has been treated to reduce the number of viable pathogens and is regularly sampled for metal content. It is worth noting that such material can also be legally spread on agricultural land in accordance with the pertinent legislation … the risks to human and animal health are considered to be low and the overall benefits of re-using/recovering the sludge outweigh any localised and temporary detrimental effects."
Scottish Borders Council informed me that its advice from SEPA was similar. It stated that the smell of the sludge at the site in question
"cannot be deemed a nuisance in terms of Section 80 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990."
That said, there are some areas of legislation that need to be examined and I am grateful to the minister for his help in identifying those in recent correspondence. I appreciate his remarks and his assistance.
To echo what Karen Gillon said earlier, the matter has to be addressed in a measured manner. One does not wish to heighten alarm among one's constituents, but there are pertinent issues involved. The first is prior consultation. It would be enormously helpful to consider ways in which to involve communities in the relevant decisions, so that some of the fears that are spread about could be removed. That would help to address some issues that have been raised in Newcastleton. A large volume of forestry traffic already goes through the village and to add to that traffic would present a difficulty. Therefore, the routing of vehicles to any site is a particularly important consideration.
There are other issues in respect of the treatment of odour on vehicles, on which there appears to be a gap in the regulatory regime. When material is being transported—if it has to be transported—it should be treated. One of the interesting things that constituents have told me is that the odour tends to come from the empty wagons, presumably because treatment takes place only for full wagons. Those detailed points need very much to be investigated.
I return to the importance of prior consultation, which would make it possible to explain to people what is happening. One of the issues that was raised in Newcastleton was how long the consultation would take. From discussions with the company involved, I have found out that the first phase will be over later this month or early next month. I am now discussing with the company what might happen in the future.
The issue is difficult and can be emotive. It is important that small remote communities in particular are not left to deal with such issues by themselves. Prior consultation would be immensely helpful, particularly in relation to work on potential sites.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman):
Lab
The final item of business is a members' business debate on motion S2M-770, in the name of Rosemary Byrne, on sewage dumping.
Motion debated,
That the Parliament accepts that the dumping of untreated or semi-treated sewage on land is a revolting concept to the public with potentially devastating he...
Ms Rosemary Byrne (South of Scotland) (SSP):
SSP
First, I thank members for staying behind for this debate and for taking so much interest in it. I have not stopped receiving e-mails and phone calls today; ...
Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
I just want to record that when I was a member of the previous Public Petitions Committee, Dorothy-Grace Elder carried out quite a lot of work on Blairingone.
Ms Byrne:
SSP
I am aware of that, and I am sure that we can learn lessons from those who were involved in that work.It appears that sewage is being disposed of in communit...
Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP):
SNP
I congratulate Rosemary Byrne on securing this debate and on raising a very important issue in the chamber. I also congratulate the Upperward against polluti...
The Deputy Minister for Environment and Rural Development (Allan Wilson):
Lab
Does the member accept that that information might not be right? Thames Water deposits solid wastes in the Thames valley.
Roseanna Cunningham:
SNP
A great deal of investigation has been carried out in the past 48 hours on the reasoning behind the situation. The advice that we have been given is that the...
Karen Gillon (Clydesdale) (Lab):
Lab
I congratulate Rosemary Byrne on securing the debate. Although I do not agree with the entire content of her motion, it is important that we are able to deba...
Ms Byrne:
SSP
Will Karen Gillon elaborate on what she means by saying that members are not fully informed?
Karen Gillon:
Lab
I ask the member if she has met SEPA to discuss the issues that she has raised and, if so, what answers SEPA gave. I had a two-and-a-half hour meeting with S...
Ms Byrne:
SSP
Can I answer the member's question?
Karen Gillon:
Lab
I am afraid not. I must take SEPA at its word. The minister will have to ascertain whether there is a problem with the regulatory regime in relation to SEPA....
David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
I congratulate Rosemary Byrne on instigating the debate. She has done a great deal of work on the issue, such as lodging questions and raising issues in Parl...
Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD):
LD
I thank the Deputy Minister for Environment and Rural Development for his permission for me to say a few words on a constituency matter. The village of Newca...
Mr Adam Ingram (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I, too, congratulate Rosemary Byrne on securing the debate. I tick off David Mundell, who knows perfectly well that my colleague Alasdair Morgan has taken a ...
Chris Ballance (South of Scotland) (Green):
Green
I congratulate Rosemary Byrne on the motion and on her work in raising the profile of the issue that we are discussing.There are three problems. First, sewag...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
A short extension to the time allowed for the debate would enable me to call the few remaining members who wish to speak. I am minded to accept a motion unde...
Motion moved,
That the Parliament agrees that, under Rule 8.14.3, the debate be extended by five minutes.—Alasdair Morgan.
Motion agreed to.
Rob Gibson (Highlands and Islands) (SNP):
SNP
As a member of the Environment and Rural Development Committee, I was made aware of the issue slightly later than the local members. Concerns have been raise...
Karen Gillon:
Lab
Only three weeks ago, I brokered a meeting with Scottish Coal, Thames Water and Terra Eco.Systems to which representatives of the Upperward against pollution...
Rob Gibson:
SNP
I am glad to hear that some attempt has been made. We are trying to find means of having these communications out in the open at an early stage, but the evid...
Mr Mark Ruskell (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green):
Green
Like others, I congratulate Rosemary Byrne on securing a debate on this controversial topic. The use of human waste as a fertiliser is controversial not only...
Alasdair Morgan (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Public consultation on the issue has been significantly lacking. At the well-attended meeting in Douglas to which I went, many people did not know what was g...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
I call the minister to wind up. He has seven minutes.
The Deputy Minister for Environment and Rural Development (Allan Wilson):
Lab
I will be as brief as I can, but these are serious issues.I add my congratulations to Rosemary Byrne on securing tonight's debate, because the Executive ackn...
Mr Ingram:
SNP
I hear what the minister is saying, but does he recognise that there is inconsistency in the way that the water companies treat sludge at the point of produc...