Chamber
Plenary, 12 Feb 2004
12 Feb 2004 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Sewage Dumping
I congratulate Rosemary Byrne on instigating the debate. She has done a great deal of work on the issue, such as lodging questions and raising issues in Parliament. I was surprised when I opened today's Daily Record to find Roseanna Cunningham grandstanding on the issue. While Rosemary Byrne was at the most recent public meeting to be held in the Coalburn miners welfare club along with my good self and Ms Gillon, the SNP was not represented by an MSP. It is unfortunate that a party-political approach should be taken simply to raise, as Karen Gillon said, the issue of nationalism. In my view, the issue is not about where the substance comes from; it is about the nature of the substance and the consultation or lack of it.
None of the organisations that has been involved to date deserves a great deal of credit because they all pressed ahead without involving the local community. The result was inevitable—those organisations have suffered a backlash, at enormous public cost, I am sure, given the resources that must have been deployed to deal with it. South Lanarkshire Council has not dealt with the matter particularly well. Certainly, the local councillor, Councillor Meikle, has an individual style when dealing with issues that has not always proved productive. Scottish Coal has not dealt with the issue helpfully either—I cannot believe that it did not anticipate the public concern about the issue.
SEPA's approach is disappointing. In my early months in the Parliament, I wrote to Andy Kerr, who was then the convener of the Transport and the Environment Committee, asking that committee to look into SEPA. I feel that SEPA faces the wrong way in carrying out its business. SEPA is reactive; while it assures us about the steps that it will take if something goes wrong, it does not reassure people that it has vetted the process and that nothing will go wrong. At this stage, people require proper information because a great deal of misinformation about the process exists. Information must be put into the public domain and, once it is there, the local communities should ultimately determine whether the scheme goes ahead.
It is clear that, at present, the community is not reassured about the process. There is conflicting information from all sorts of organisations. We must get information to the community and, at the end of the day, if the community is not satisfied, full-scale use of the substance should not go ahead. We have to learn from the approach that has been taken and consider how the work of the various organisations involved can be co-ordinated, so that the matter will not be handled in the same way again.
We need to examine the planning system. At the last public meeting on the issue, we got into a very detailed discussion about statutory instruments relative to the planning process. We need to consider all the issues under the promised national review of the planning process, because people feel that it is possible to dump sewage sludge without such an extensive planning process as applies to people who want to add a dormer window to their house.
None of the organisations that has been involved to date deserves a great deal of credit because they all pressed ahead without involving the local community. The result was inevitable—those organisations have suffered a backlash, at enormous public cost, I am sure, given the resources that must have been deployed to deal with it. South Lanarkshire Council has not dealt with the matter particularly well. Certainly, the local councillor, Councillor Meikle, has an individual style when dealing with issues that has not always proved productive. Scottish Coal has not dealt with the issue helpfully either—I cannot believe that it did not anticipate the public concern about the issue.
SEPA's approach is disappointing. In my early months in the Parliament, I wrote to Andy Kerr, who was then the convener of the Transport and the Environment Committee, asking that committee to look into SEPA. I feel that SEPA faces the wrong way in carrying out its business. SEPA is reactive; while it assures us about the steps that it will take if something goes wrong, it does not reassure people that it has vetted the process and that nothing will go wrong. At this stage, people require proper information because a great deal of misinformation about the process exists. Information must be put into the public domain and, once it is there, the local communities should ultimately determine whether the scheme goes ahead.
It is clear that, at present, the community is not reassured about the process. There is conflicting information from all sorts of organisations. We must get information to the community and, at the end of the day, if the community is not satisfied, full-scale use of the substance should not go ahead. We have to learn from the approach that has been taken and consider how the work of the various organisations involved can be co-ordinated, so that the matter will not be handled in the same way again.
We need to examine the planning system. At the last public meeting on the issue, we got into a very detailed discussion about statutory instruments relative to the planning process. We need to consider all the issues under the promised national review of the planning process, because people feel that it is possible to dump sewage sludge without such an extensive planning process as applies to people who want to add a dormer window to their house.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman):
Lab
The final item of business is a members' business debate on motion S2M-770, in the name of Rosemary Byrne, on sewage dumping.
Motion debated,
That the Parliament accepts that the dumping of untreated or semi-treated sewage on land is a revolting concept to the public with potentially devastating he...
Ms Rosemary Byrne (South of Scotland) (SSP):
SSP
First, I thank members for staying behind for this debate and for taking so much interest in it. I have not stopped receiving e-mails and phone calls today; ...
Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
I just want to record that when I was a member of the previous Public Petitions Committee, Dorothy-Grace Elder carried out quite a lot of work on Blairingone.
Ms Byrne:
SSP
I am aware of that, and I am sure that we can learn lessons from those who were involved in that work.It appears that sewage is being disposed of in communit...
Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP):
SNP
I congratulate Rosemary Byrne on securing this debate and on raising a very important issue in the chamber. I also congratulate the Upperward against polluti...
The Deputy Minister for Environment and Rural Development (Allan Wilson):
Lab
Does the member accept that that information might not be right? Thames Water deposits solid wastes in the Thames valley.
Roseanna Cunningham:
SNP
A great deal of investigation has been carried out in the past 48 hours on the reasoning behind the situation. The advice that we have been given is that the...
Karen Gillon (Clydesdale) (Lab):
Lab
I congratulate Rosemary Byrne on securing the debate. Although I do not agree with the entire content of her motion, it is important that we are able to deba...
Ms Byrne:
SSP
Will Karen Gillon elaborate on what she means by saying that members are not fully informed?
Karen Gillon:
Lab
I ask the member if she has met SEPA to discuss the issues that she has raised and, if so, what answers SEPA gave. I had a two-and-a-half hour meeting with S...
Ms Byrne:
SSP
Can I answer the member's question?
Karen Gillon:
Lab
I am afraid not. I must take SEPA at its word. The minister will have to ascertain whether there is a problem with the regulatory regime in relation to SEPA....
David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
I congratulate Rosemary Byrne on instigating the debate. She has done a great deal of work on the issue, such as lodging questions and raising issues in Parl...
Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD):
LD
I thank the Deputy Minister for Environment and Rural Development for his permission for me to say a few words on a constituency matter. The village of Newca...
Mr Adam Ingram (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I, too, congratulate Rosemary Byrne on securing the debate. I tick off David Mundell, who knows perfectly well that my colleague Alasdair Morgan has taken a ...
Chris Ballance (South of Scotland) (Green):
Green
I congratulate Rosemary Byrne on the motion and on her work in raising the profile of the issue that we are discussing.There are three problems. First, sewag...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
A short extension to the time allowed for the debate would enable me to call the few remaining members who wish to speak. I am minded to accept a motion unde...
Motion moved,
That the Parliament agrees that, under Rule 8.14.3, the debate be extended by five minutes.—Alasdair Morgan.
Motion agreed to.
Rob Gibson (Highlands and Islands) (SNP):
SNP
As a member of the Environment and Rural Development Committee, I was made aware of the issue slightly later than the local members. Concerns have been raise...
Karen Gillon:
Lab
Only three weeks ago, I brokered a meeting with Scottish Coal, Thames Water and Terra Eco.Systems to which representatives of the Upperward against pollution...
Rob Gibson:
SNP
I am glad to hear that some attempt has been made. We are trying to find means of having these communications out in the open at an early stage, but the evid...
Mr Mark Ruskell (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green):
Green
Like others, I congratulate Rosemary Byrne on securing a debate on this controversial topic. The use of human waste as a fertiliser is controversial not only...
Alasdair Morgan (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Public consultation on the issue has been significantly lacking. At the well-attended meeting in Douglas to which I went, many people did not know what was g...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
I call the minister to wind up. He has seven minutes.
The Deputy Minister for Environment and Rural Development (Allan Wilson):
Lab
I will be as brief as I can, but these are serious issues.I add my congratulations to Rosemary Byrne on securing tonight's debate, because the Executive ackn...
Mr Ingram:
SNP
I hear what the minister is saying, but does he recognise that there is inconsistency in the way that the water companies treat sludge at the point of produc...