Chamber
Plenary, 08 Oct 2003
08 Oct 2003 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Scottish Fire and Rescue Service
I have taken two interventions already. As I get less time than other members, I have only two minutes of my speech left.
I ask the Deputy Minister for Justice to say in his response to the debate whether, under the Executive's proposals, we could have a postcode fire service. Will the minister guarantee that there will not be such a service? If there were such a service, I might get one pump on its own instead of two pumps and an aerial ladder platform. Who will make that decision? How will the Executive ensure that cover is the same across the board?
We have barely started discussing the matter and we have not yet started the consultation process, but safety is already being compromised in the service. At present—before we have moved to the new integrated risk management plans—there are agreed norms of safety standards, but fire pumps run from stations in Strathclyde with not enough firefighters on them. The attitude of the management is that firefighters can take it or leave it. Before we even have the debate, existing safety norms are being compromised.
The Executive proposes to abolish the Scottish Central Fire Brigades Advisory Council, on which the Fire Brigades Union Scotland is represented. What will that council be replaced with? Will there be a central body that sets minimum standards and will it be advisory, regulatory or statutory? Will the body set standards against which chief fire officers and regional fire boards will be able to measure their standards of cover? Above all, will the FBU be able to represent the work force on that body? I would welcome the minister's comments on that issue.
I move amendment S2M-456.3, to insert at end:
"and considers that safety is paramount and that during the transitional period moving from the traditional approach to standards of fire cover to Integrated Risk Management Plans (IRMPs), the IRMPs must be tested, validated and piloted to prove that they are leading to an improvement in public and firefighter safety prior to implementation."
I ask the Deputy Minister for Justice to say in his response to the debate whether, under the Executive's proposals, we could have a postcode fire service. Will the minister guarantee that there will not be such a service? If there were such a service, I might get one pump on its own instead of two pumps and an aerial ladder platform. Who will make that decision? How will the Executive ensure that cover is the same across the board?
We have barely started discussing the matter and we have not yet started the consultation process, but safety is already being compromised in the service. At present—before we have moved to the new integrated risk management plans—there are agreed norms of safety standards, but fire pumps run from stations in Strathclyde with not enough firefighters on them. The attitude of the management is that firefighters can take it or leave it. Before we even have the debate, existing safety norms are being compromised.
The Executive proposes to abolish the Scottish Central Fire Brigades Advisory Council, on which the Fire Brigades Union Scotland is represented. What will that council be replaced with? Will there be a central body that sets minimum standards and will it be advisory, regulatory or statutory? Will the body set standards against which chief fire officers and regional fire boards will be able to measure their standards of cover? Above all, will the FBU be able to represent the work force on that body? I would welcome the minister's comments on that issue.
I move amendment S2M-456.3, to insert at end:
"and considers that safety is paramount and that during the transitional period moving from the traditional approach to standards of fire cover to Integrated Risk Management Plans (IRMPs), the IRMPs must be tested, validated and piloted to prove that they are leading to an improvement in public and firefighter safety prior to implementation."
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S2M-456, in the name of Cathy Jamieson, on proposals for legislation on the Scottish fire and rescue service,...
The Minister for Justice (Cathy Jamieson):
Lab
The Executive has initiated this debate to give the Parliament an early opportunity to discuss our continued commitment to the fire service in Scotland follo...
Alasdair Morgan (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
On the division between statutory and non-statutory duties, will the minister say what thought has been given to the role of the fire service in relation to ...
Cathy Jamieson:
Lab
The member raises an interesting point, which we will certainly wish to consider. We will be happy to pick up on that, and I am sure that the member, who has...
Mr David Davidson (North East Scotland) (Con):
Con
The minister is giving the impression that because John Prescott's department has decided to do something, she should automatically follow. What made her cha...
Cathy Jamieson:
Lab
It is not the case that because one department does something others should automatically follow. However, when considering how to provide the best structure...
Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
Will the minister give way?
Cathy Jamieson:
Lab
I would like to move on.We see both greater collaboration between brigades and a common approach in certain areas as having considerable benefits. Last year ...
Christine May (Central Fife) (Lab):
Lab
Will the minister give way?
Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP) rose—
SNP
Cathy Jamieson:
Lab
I will give way after I have finished making this point.Finally, we want specifically to examine whether a better, more efficient control room service could ...
Christine May:
Lab
Does the minister agree that the input of the Fire Brigades Union will be essential in obtaining a key section of views in all the consultations?
Cathy Jamieson:
Lab
I agree wholeheartedly. As I outlined earlier, in advance of issuing the consultation paper I had a very productive meeting with the Fire Brigades Union. I h...
Alex Neil:
SNP
Will the minister give way?
Cathy Jamieson:
Lab
I am running out of time.We want there to be efficient and modern appointment, promotion and discipline processes for the people who work for the service. Th...
Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
I will begin by paying tribute to Scotland's firefighters, who do a tremendous job on our behalf, often in difficult circumstances and at great personal risk...
The Deputy Minister for Justice (Hugh Henry):
Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Nicola Sturgeon:
SNP
I am in my final few seconds. To the extent that the proposals contribute to that aim, they will have the support of the SNP. However, if they do not, we wil...
Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con):
Con
I welcome the opportunity to debate the provision of a Scottish fire and rescue service, about which I am sure that there will be areas of common accord, not...
Cathy Jamieson:
Lab
I welcome Annabel Goldie's comments. Does she accept that what I tried to lay out in the document and in my speech today is the need to get the right balance...
Miss Goldie:
Con
Yes, and I was comforted by the observations in that connection. I do not think that there is any objection to the need for the Executive to have a strategic...
Christine May:
Lab
Will the member give way?
Miss Goldie:
Con
I am short of time. I am sorry.If one examines the pattern that I have described, it can be seen that any reduction in the number of brigades could reduce th...
Frances Curran (West of Scotland) (SSP):
SSP
I am aware that a consultation process is beginning, but I always ask what a consultation is on. Is it on modernising the fire service? When I hear the word ...
Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab):
Lab
The member seems totally adverse to modernisation. Does she not accept that, after 11 September, terrorism and decontamination issues mean that the fire serv...
Frances Curran:
SSP
It is the word "modernising" that I have a problem with. Account can be taken of those issues and investment can be made to deal with them, as the pathfinder...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
I do not know whether Frances Curran suggests that, following the logic of her argument, we should do away with chief fire officers and fire boards and have ...
Frances Curran:
SSP
I will come to that point. At the moment, those issues are devolved and there is no clear safeguard for national standards that involves all the participants...
Karen Gillon (Clydesdale) (Lab):
Lab
Will the member give way?
Frances Curran:
SSP
I have taken two interventions already. As I get less time than other members, I have only two minutes of my speech left.I ask the Deputy Minister for Justic...