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Chamber

Plenary, 08 Oct 2003

08 Oct 2003 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Scottish Fire and Rescue Service
I welcome the opportunity to debate the provision of a Scottish fire and rescue service, about which I am sure that there will be areas of common accord, not just in the chamber but in the service and among the public.

It is the legitimate expectation of the public to have a well-manned, well-resourced and professionally operated fire service. Conversely, it is an obligation on the public never to take that service for granted, nor to underestimate the bravery, dedication and professionalism that is daily represented by the men and women in our fire brigades. Having experienced a serious fire, I have seen those attributes at first hand.

It is an equally legitimate expectation of those men and women to work in an efficiently structured organisation that offers satisfying and worthwhile career opportunities. Again, however, the men and women in the fire service have an obligation to acknowledge that, in a changing world with challenging demands and constant technological innovation, the fire service is no more immune than any sector, private or public, to the need for vision, change and flexibility in how its service is provided.

Of course, as countless people in other sectors have found, those demands bring uncertainties, turbulence and disquiet. If there is to be positive progress with reorganisation, it is vital that the proposals are proffered in a rational and constructive manner, and that reaction and response to such proposals are delivered sensibly and objectively. I am sure that we are all agreed that there is no place for stridency, posturing or prejudice in that process. I accept that the minister is offering a genuine opportunity for debate on the issue.

At first sight, the Executive's proposals seem to offer a constructive way forward. For example, the five core duties that have been identified seem to form a sensible acknowledgement of the undoubted changes to society and our environment that have taken place since the Fire Services Act 1947. However, lurking within the proposals are express or implied arrangements that merit careful examination.

I will examine some of the express arrangements to which reference has already been made during the debate—the introduction of a national framework to provide strategic national direction, the establishment of a common fire services agency and the replacement of the current Scottish Central Fire Brigades Advisory Council with a strategic advisory group. By their nature, those proposals are heavily flavoured with centralised control and potential ministerial interference, which, to my party, is a retrograde step. I detect from what Nicola Sturgeon said that she favours the ministerial mantle of control, but that may be regressive.

When the Executive sought covertly and at the last minute to repeal section 19 of the Fire Services Act 1947 with an amendment to the Local Government in Scotland Bill, my party voted against the amendment and the repeal on the sole basis of the ill-judged way in which the Executive introduced the matter. On the merits of the issue, it is our view that the repeal of section 19 of the 1947 act is to be welcomed, because it will end the process of bringing ministers into local decision making. It is about devolving power down to the front line and to those who deal with the hazards of the service, which is a principle that my party supports.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S2M-456, in the name of Cathy Jamieson, on proposals for legislation on the Scottish fire and rescue service,...
The Minister for Justice (Cathy Jamieson): Lab
The Executive has initiated this debate to give the Parliament an early opportunity to discuss our continued commitment to the fire service in Scotland follo...
Alasdair Morgan (South of Scotland) (SNP): SNP
On the division between statutory and non-statutory duties, will the minister say what thought has been given to the role of the fire service in relation to ...
Cathy Jamieson: Lab
The member raises an interesting point, which we will certainly wish to consider. We will be happy to pick up on that, and I am sure that the member, who has...
Mr David Davidson (North East Scotland) (Con): Con
The minister is giving the impression that because John Prescott's department has decided to do something, she should automatically follow. What made her cha...
Cathy Jamieson: Lab
It is not the case that because one department does something others should automatically follow. However, when considering how to provide the best structure...
Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): SNP
Will the minister give way?
Cathy Jamieson: Lab
I would like to move on.We see both greater collaboration between brigades and a common approach in certain areas as having considerable benefits. Last year ...
Christine May (Central Fife) (Lab): Lab
Will the minister give way?
Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP) rose— SNP
Cathy Jamieson: Lab
I will give way after I have finished making this point.Finally, we want specifically to examine whether a better, more efficient control room service could ...
Christine May: Lab
Does the minister agree that the input of the Fire Brigades Union will be essential in obtaining a key section of views in all the consultations?
Cathy Jamieson: Lab
I agree wholeheartedly. As I outlined earlier, in advance of issuing the consultation paper I had a very productive meeting with the Fire Brigades Union. I h...
Alex Neil: SNP
Will the minister give way?
Cathy Jamieson: Lab
I am running out of time.We want there to be efficient and modern appointment, promotion and discipline processes for the people who work for the service. Th...
Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP): SNP
I will begin by paying tribute to Scotland's firefighters, who do a tremendous job on our behalf, often in difficult circumstances and at great personal risk...
The Deputy Minister for Justice (Hugh Henry): Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Nicola Sturgeon: SNP
I am in my final few seconds. To the extent that the proposals contribute to that aim, they will have the support of the SNP. However, if they do not, we wil...
Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con): Con
I welcome the opportunity to debate the provision of a Scottish fire and rescue service, about which I am sure that there will be areas of common accord, not...
Cathy Jamieson: Lab
I welcome Annabel Goldie's comments. Does she accept that what I tried to lay out in the document and in my speech today is the need to get the right balance...
Miss Goldie: Con
Yes, and I was comforted by the observations in that connection. I do not think that there is any objection to the need for the Executive to have a strategic...
Christine May: Lab
Will the member give way?
Miss Goldie: Con
I am short of time. I am sorry.If one examines the pattern that I have described, it can be seen that any reduction in the number of brigades could reduce th...
Frances Curran (West of Scotland) (SSP): SSP
I am aware that a consultation process is beginning, but I always ask what a consultation is on. Is it on modernising the fire service? When I hear the word ...
Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab): Lab
The member seems totally adverse to modernisation. Does she not accept that, after 11 September, terrorism and decontamination issues mean that the fire serv...
Frances Curran: SSP
It is the word "modernising" that I have a problem with. Account can be taken of those issues and investment can be made to deal with them, as the pathfinder...
Hugh Henry: Lab
I do not know whether Frances Curran suggests that, following the logic of her argument, we should do away with chief fire officers and fire boards and have ...
Frances Curran: SSP
I will come to that point. At the moment, those issues are devolved and there is no clear safeguard for national standards that involves all the participants...
Karen Gillon (Clydesdale) (Lab): Lab
Will the member give way?
Frances Curran: SSP
I have taken two interventions already. As I get less time than other members, I have only two minutes of my speech left.I ask the Deputy Minister for Justic...