Chamber
Plenary, 08 Oct 2003
08 Oct 2003 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Scottish Fire and Rescue Service
The Executive has initiated this debate to give the Parliament an early opportunity to discuss our continued commitment to the fire service in Scotland following the publication of our latest consultation paper on proposed new legislation.
In May 2002, we debated our policy consultation paper, "The Scottish Fire Service of The Future". That paper acknowledged that fires and their consequences can have a devastating impact on individuals and communities. Scotland continues to have the unenviable record of more fire-related deaths per head of population than any other country in the United Kingdom. We must do all we can to stop fires starting in the first place, as well as tackling them when they do arise.
We also recognise that the fire service's role has evolved and developed and that the time is right to give the fire service in Scotland a new vision and direction. Our earlier policy consultation paper was widely and warmly welcomed by all the respondents, including the major stakeholders, both employers and unions. We are therefore clear that there is much support for our vision for the Scottish fire service. We want a fire service that makes a full contribution to building a safer society by working with others to reduce death and injury, and damage to property and the environment, from fire and other emergencies.
We stated in May 2002 that our intention was to deliver many of the recommendations in our policy paper through the introduction of new legislation for the fire service. The new legislative proposals are the first in more than 50 years and will impact on all aspects of the fire service in Scotland. We published the proposals on 1 October, and I stress that we want an open and constructive dialogue on them. We have circulated the consultation document widely—to the main stakeholders and beyond—and have invited written responses. In addition, we will set up a series of road show meetings with each fire authority and other interested groups at which we will present the issues and the thinking behind the proposals. We look forward to a structured discussion about the issues and to hearing at first hand the views and comments of those most affected.
Preliminary discussions took place with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and the Fire Brigades Union prior to the paper's publication. I was, therefore, somewhat disappointed that the Fire Brigades Union press release in response to the publication of the paper seemed to misunderstand some of our proposals. I am glad that that situation has been clarified and that the Fire Brigades Union wishes to involve itself and engage with us constructively in the process.
It was even more disturbing to see some of the press reports of the FBU's reaction, which implied that industrial action, including a strike, could be triggered by the proposals. The FBU wrote to me quickly to clarify that position. It made clear that it had made no reference to strike action and expressed surprise at the press reaction. As I have said, the FBU has also said that it intends to be fully involved in the bill's progress. It reiterated its support for a number of areas in the consultation, including the development of community fire safety, fire investigation and enforcement. I welcome that clarification and trust that we will be able to continue the consultation process constructively and openly.
I will outline our legislative intentions. Members will see that there is a common theme at the heart of our proposals: to drive down the risk from fire, wherever it may occur. It is essential that we make a significant impact on our appalling record of fire fatalities and injuries.
The independent review of the fire service was critical of central Government over the lack of a strategic direction for the service over the years. We accept that criticism, and we intend to remedy it through the introduction of a national framework, which will set out the Executive's expectations of the fire and rescue service; the standards that it expects the service to meet; and how the service should undertake specific functions where necessary for reasons of national priority.
If fire and rescue authorities are to strengthen their service delivery, they need to be clear about their priorities and objectives. The framework within which fire and rescue authorities currently operate is restrictive. Many decisions on local matters are determined by central prescription, which, I believe, does not strike the right balance between national and local responsibility. The fire and rescue service is a local service, and it should be delivered locally. The national framework will strengthen the responsibility of authorities to deliver the service in the best possible way for the local community.
Similar models, which provide a national framework on local delivery, already exist, and we know that they work well. For example, the Standards in Scotland's Schools etc (Scotland) Act 2000 provides for such a system of setting national priorities. It has resulted in a strong national focus on outcomes for local service delivery.
I will briefly mention terrorism. National priorities will focus on areas of national resilience, including the ability to respond to the threat of terrorism, and it is vital that all fire and rescue authorities achieve what is required of them in those areas. Ministers therefore intend to take reserve powers, so that they can ensure that the delivery of national priorities in the national framework is not undermined.
In last year's consultation paper, we highlighted the deficiencies of the current advisory committee structure. The processes have been slow and bureaucratic. We therefore intend to improve the decision-making arrangements by putting in place a smaller and more dynamic advisory group. Stakeholder input to policy development will be provided through a practitioners forum, which we will look to employers and management to form. By extending the remit and membership of the existing Scottish subcommittee of the Fire Safety Advisory Board—which is a bit of a mouthful—we will provide business, community and industry interests with a platform for influencing policy development.
We are all aware of the extent to which the role of the fire service has evolved over the years. Currently, a difference exists between what brigades have a statutory duty to do and what they actually do. Our legislative proposals will provide the necessary statutory basis for the core duties of the fire and rescue service. Fighting fires will, of course, remain a core duty, but those core duties will now also embrace fire prevention, attending road traffic accidents, attending other serious non-fire emergencies and assuming an enforcement role for the proposed fire safety reforms.
Two principles will underpin these core duties. The first is the fulfilment of our aim to reduce risk through the introduction of integrated risk management plans. We are convinced that that approach will deliver the necessary balanced intervention and prevention agenda, with the focus being on the protection of people rather than on that of property. The second principle is the recognition of the new and serious threat from terrorism and the need to provide a co-ordinated national response to it. We therefore intend to put in place the necessary powers to enable fire and rescue authorities to provide mutual assistance for all their core duties. It will be important to have powers to ensure that we maintain a flexible response on a Scotland-wide level and plug any gaps in our emergency response.
In May 2002, we debated our policy consultation paper, "The Scottish Fire Service of The Future". That paper acknowledged that fires and their consequences can have a devastating impact on individuals and communities. Scotland continues to have the unenviable record of more fire-related deaths per head of population than any other country in the United Kingdom. We must do all we can to stop fires starting in the first place, as well as tackling them when they do arise.
We also recognise that the fire service's role has evolved and developed and that the time is right to give the fire service in Scotland a new vision and direction. Our earlier policy consultation paper was widely and warmly welcomed by all the respondents, including the major stakeholders, both employers and unions. We are therefore clear that there is much support for our vision for the Scottish fire service. We want a fire service that makes a full contribution to building a safer society by working with others to reduce death and injury, and damage to property and the environment, from fire and other emergencies.
We stated in May 2002 that our intention was to deliver many of the recommendations in our policy paper through the introduction of new legislation for the fire service. The new legislative proposals are the first in more than 50 years and will impact on all aspects of the fire service in Scotland. We published the proposals on 1 October, and I stress that we want an open and constructive dialogue on them. We have circulated the consultation document widely—to the main stakeholders and beyond—and have invited written responses. In addition, we will set up a series of road show meetings with each fire authority and other interested groups at which we will present the issues and the thinking behind the proposals. We look forward to a structured discussion about the issues and to hearing at first hand the views and comments of those most affected.
Preliminary discussions took place with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and the Fire Brigades Union prior to the paper's publication. I was, therefore, somewhat disappointed that the Fire Brigades Union press release in response to the publication of the paper seemed to misunderstand some of our proposals. I am glad that that situation has been clarified and that the Fire Brigades Union wishes to involve itself and engage with us constructively in the process.
It was even more disturbing to see some of the press reports of the FBU's reaction, which implied that industrial action, including a strike, could be triggered by the proposals. The FBU wrote to me quickly to clarify that position. It made clear that it had made no reference to strike action and expressed surprise at the press reaction. As I have said, the FBU has also said that it intends to be fully involved in the bill's progress. It reiterated its support for a number of areas in the consultation, including the development of community fire safety, fire investigation and enforcement. I welcome that clarification and trust that we will be able to continue the consultation process constructively and openly.
I will outline our legislative intentions. Members will see that there is a common theme at the heart of our proposals: to drive down the risk from fire, wherever it may occur. It is essential that we make a significant impact on our appalling record of fire fatalities and injuries.
The independent review of the fire service was critical of central Government over the lack of a strategic direction for the service over the years. We accept that criticism, and we intend to remedy it through the introduction of a national framework, which will set out the Executive's expectations of the fire and rescue service; the standards that it expects the service to meet; and how the service should undertake specific functions where necessary for reasons of national priority.
If fire and rescue authorities are to strengthen their service delivery, they need to be clear about their priorities and objectives. The framework within which fire and rescue authorities currently operate is restrictive. Many decisions on local matters are determined by central prescription, which, I believe, does not strike the right balance between national and local responsibility. The fire and rescue service is a local service, and it should be delivered locally. The national framework will strengthen the responsibility of authorities to deliver the service in the best possible way for the local community.
Similar models, which provide a national framework on local delivery, already exist, and we know that they work well. For example, the Standards in Scotland's Schools etc (Scotland) Act 2000 provides for such a system of setting national priorities. It has resulted in a strong national focus on outcomes for local service delivery.
I will briefly mention terrorism. National priorities will focus on areas of national resilience, including the ability to respond to the threat of terrorism, and it is vital that all fire and rescue authorities achieve what is required of them in those areas. Ministers therefore intend to take reserve powers, so that they can ensure that the delivery of national priorities in the national framework is not undermined.
In last year's consultation paper, we highlighted the deficiencies of the current advisory committee structure. The processes have been slow and bureaucratic. We therefore intend to improve the decision-making arrangements by putting in place a smaller and more dynamic advisory group. Stakeholder input to policy development will be provided through a practitioners forum, which we will look to employers and management to form. By extending the remit and membership of the existing Scottish subcommittee of the Fire Safety Advisory Board—which is a bit of a mouthful—we will provide business, community and industry interests with a platform for influencing policy development.
We are all aware of the extent to which the role of the fire service has evolved over the years. Currently, a difference exists between what brigades have a statutory duty to do and what they actually do. Our legislative proposals will provide the necessary statutory basis for the core duties of the fire and rescue service. Fighting fires will, of course, remain a core duty, but those core duties will now also embrace fire prevention, attending road traffic accidents, attending other serious non-fire emergencies and assuming an enforcement role for the proposed fire safety reforms.
Two principles will underpin these core duties. The first is the fulfilment of our aim to reduce risk through the introduction of integrated risk management plans. We are convinced that that approach will deliver the necessary balanced intervention and prevention agenda, with the focus being on the protection of people rather than on that of property. The second principle is the recognition of the new and serious threat from terrorism and the need to provide a co-ordinated national response to it. We therefore intend to put in place the necessary powers to enable fire and rescue authorities to provide mutual assistance for all their core duties. It will be important to have powers to ensure that we maintain a flexible response on a Scotland-wide level and plug any gaps in our emergency response.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S2M-456, in the name of Cathy Jamieson, on proposals for legislation on the Scottish fire and rescue service,...
The Minister for Justice (Cathy Jamieson):
Lab
The Executive has initiated this debate to give the Parliament an early opportunity to discuss our continued commitment to the fire service in Scotland follo...
Alasdair Morgan (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
On the division between statutory and non-statutory duties, will the minister say what thought has been given to the role of the fire service in relation to ...
Cathy Jamieson:
Lab
The member raises an interesting point, which we will certainly wish to consider. We will be happy to pick up on that, and I am sure that the member, who has...
Mr David Davidson (North East Scotland) (Con):
Con
The minister is giving the impression that because John Prescott's department has decided to do something, she should automatically follow. What made her cha...
Cathy Jamieson:
Lab
It is not the case that because one department does something others should automatically follow. However, when considering how to provide the best structure...
Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
Will the minister give way?
Cathy Jamieson:
Lab
I would like to move on.We see both greater collaboration between brigades and a common approach in certain areas as having considerable benefits. Last year ...
Christine May (Central Fife) (Lab):
Lab
Will the minister give way?
Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP) rose—
SNP
Cathy Jamieson:
Lab
I will give way after I have finished making this point.Finally, we want specifically to examine whether a better, more efficient control room service could ...
Christine May:
Lab
Does the minister agree that the input of the Fire Brigades Union will be essential in obtaining a key section of views in all the consultations?
Cathy Jamieson:
Lab
I agree wholeheartedly. As I outlined earlier, in advance of issuing the consultation paper I had a very productive meeting with the Fire Brigades Union. I h...
Alex Neil:
SNP
Will the minister give way?
Cathy Jamieson:
Lab
I am running out of time.We want there to be efficient and modern appointment, promotion and discipline processes for the people who work for the service. Th...
Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
I will begin by paying tribute to Scotland's firefighters, who do a tremendous job on our behalf, often in difficult circumstances and at great personal risk...
The Deputy Minister for Justice (Hugh Henry):
Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Nicola Sturgeon:
SNP
I am in my final few seconds. To the extent that the proposals contribute to that aim, they will have the support of the SNP. However, if they do not, we wil...
Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con):
Con
I welcome the opportunity to debate the provision of a Scottish fire and rescue service, about which I am sure that there will be areas of common accord, not...
Cathy Jamieson:
Lab
I welcome Annabel Goldie's comments. Does she accept that what I tried to lay out in the document and in my speech today is the need to get the right balance...
Miss Goldie:
Con
Yes, and I was comforted by the observations in that connection. I do not think that there is any objection to the need for the Executive to have a strategic...
Christine May:
Lab
Will the member give way?
Miss Goldie:
Con
I am short of time. I am sorry.If one examines the pattern that I have described, it can be seen that any reduction in the number of brigades could reduce th...
Frances Curran (West of Scotland) (SSP):
SSP
I am aware that a consultation process is beginning, but I always ask what a consultation is on. Is it on modernising the fire service? When I hear the word ...
Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab):
Lab
The member seems totally adverse to modernisation. Does she not accept that, after 11 September, terrorism and decontamination issues mean that the fire serv...
Frances Curran:
SSP
It is the word "modernising" that I have a problem with. Account can be taken of those issues and investment can be made to deal with them, as the pathfinder...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
I do not know whether Frances Curran suggests that, following the logic of her argument, we should do away with chief fire officers and fire boards and have ...
Frances Curran:
SSP
I will come to that point. At the moment, those issues are devolved and there is no clear safeguard for national standards that involves all the participants...
Karen Gillon (Clydesdale) (Lab):
Lab
Will the member give way?
Frances Curran:
SSP
I have taken two interventions already. As I get less time than other members, I have only two minutes of my speech left.I ask the Deputy Minister for Justic...