Chamber
Plenary, 19 Mar 2003
19 Mar 2003 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Charity Law Reform
Jackie Baillie has done us a favour in giving us an opportunity to focus yet again on the critical role that charities and voluntary organisations play in the life of the country, as many members have testified is the case.
It would go against my grain if I were not to rise to some of the political comments that have been made. I do not want the debate to deteriorate into petty party-political point scoring, but I say in passing that there are some who joined this Parliament four years ago whining, moaning and groaning and who are clearly determined to end the session doing the same thing. I did not recognise the description that I heard tonight of the Parliament's and the Executive's view of the voluntary and charitable sector.
I have noted some points and I will reflect and report back on them. Donald Gorrie regretted the lack of progress made by the Executive and I will certainly feed his comments back to Jim Wallace, who has taken a close interest in the matter during the past four years. I do not think that the criticisms and some of the concerns that were raised are entirely accurate. That said, there are some things to which we need to give due consideration.
It is important to put on record our appreciation of the work that charities do throughout Scotland. As members have testified, charities deliver a wide range of services. Their work with disadvantaged and marginalised groups plays a key part in achieving greater social justice in Scotland. I know that Jackie Baillie feels very strongly about that.
Charities also provide a range of expertise that is not available in any other organisation in Scotland. Without charities' knowledge, skill and expertise, Scotland and many of its inhabitants would be much the poorer. The changes in charity regulation that we are putting in place are designed to support and encourage that work, while reassuring the public that their money is being well used and that support is being properly provided.
Our response to the McFadden report contains responses to all 114 of the commission's recommendations and sets out plans for the way forward. I hope that members have had the opportunity to reflect on our response to the report, as we responded at length. We are grateful to the McFadden commission for the important work that it carried out. The McFadden report was a diligent and worthwhile piece of work, which deserved a careful and thorough response. I believe that that is what it received—indeed, one commissioner described our response as well worth the wait. The commissioners do not accept the suggestions that have been made that the Executive responded negatively to their report.
We accept the thrust of the report, which is that there should be better regulation and support of charities in Scotland. Our plans will provide, for the first time, an up-to-date register of Scottish charities and a central source of support and advice for charities, their trustees and the public. Our plans will also provide a regulator—the office of the Scottish charity regulator—whose functions will include the routine monitoring of charities, including scrutiny of their annual reports. I believe that those plans address the gap in regulation, which has clearly been a cause of concern for some time. We are working on many of the tasks that need to be undertaken to bring the OSCR into operation early next year.
As Robin Harper and one or two other members remarked, the definition of a charity is key to the question of which bodies receive the benefit of charitable status and so fall to be regulated. We agree with McFadden that the current definition of a charity is outdated. Jackie Baillie and other members mentioned the long history of the legislation in that respect. We believe that a new UK-wide definition is desirable. Although none was in prospect at the time that the McFadden commission was carrying out its work, I believe that there is the prospect of such a definition.
The Cabinet Office strategy unit produced a report on charities and the wider not-for-profit sector. Johann Lamont made a valuable contribution about that sector. We need to consider some of the issues in relation to co-operative organisations that she raised, including how money and resources are owned and distributed.
The Cabinet Office strategy unit report gives us an opportunity to consider a modernised definition of charities that is based on the principle of public benefit and a wider range of purposes. Such a definition could encompass issues such as the promotion of human rights, which is all too often ignored, and the advancement of amateur sport, in which many organisations in this country play a valuable part.
I believe that the strategy unit definition reflects the spirit of the McFadden recommendations. Indeed, the SCVO has described the continuing role of the Inland Revenue in determining charitable status as unnecessary and problematic. It would probably be possible to legislate for charitable status to be conferred in Scotland by the regulator, using either the UK or a different definition.
It would go against my grain if I were not to rise to some of the political comments that have been made. I do not want the debate to deteriorate into petty party-political point scoring, but I say in passing that there are some who joined this Parliament four years ago whining, moaning and groaning and who are clearly determined to end the session doing the same thing. I did not recognise the description that I heard tonight of the Parliament's and the Executive's view of the voluntary and charitable sector.
I have noted some points and I will reflect and report back on them. Donald Gorrie regretted the lack of progress made by the Executive and I will certainly feed his comments back to Jim Wallace, who has taken a close interest in the matter during the past four years. I do not think that the criticisms and some of the concerns that were raised are entirely accurate. That said, there are some things to which we need to give due consideration.
It is important to put on record our appreciation of the work that charities do throughout Scotland. As members have testified, charities deliver a wide range of services. Their work with disadvantaged and marginalised groups plays a key part in achieving greater social justice in Scotland. I know that Jackie Baillie feels very strongly about that.
Charities also provide a range of expertise that is not available in any other organisation in Scotland. Without charities' knowledge, skill and expertise, Scotland and many of its inhabitants would be much the poorer. The changes in charity regulation that we are putting in place are designed to support and encourage that work, while reassuring the public that their money is being well used and that support is being properly provided.
Our response to the McFadden report contains responses to all 114 of the commission's recommendations and sets out plans for the way forward. I hope that members have had the opportunity to reflect on our response to the report, as we responded at length. We are grateful to the McFadden commission for the important work that it carried out. The McFadden report was a diligent and worthwhile piece of work, which deserved a careful and thorough response. I believe that that is what it received—indeed, one commissioner described our response as well worth the wait. The commissioners do not accept the suggestions that have been made that the Executive responded negatively to their report.
We accept the thrust of the report, which is that there should be better regulation and support of charities in Scotland. Our plans will provide, for the first time, an up-to-date register of Scottish charities and a central source of support and advice for charities, their trustees and the public. Our plans will also provide a regulator—the office of the Scottish charity regulator—whose functions will include the routine monitoring of charities, including scrutiny of their annual reports. I believe that those plans address the gap in regulation, which has clearly been a cause of concern for some time. We are working on many of the tasks that need to be undertaken to bring the OSCR into operation early next year.
As Robin Harper and one or two other members remarked, the definition of a charity is key to the question of which bodies receive the benefit of charitable status and so fall to be regulated. We agree with McFadden that the current definition of a charity is outdated. Jackie Baillie and other members mentioned the long history of the legislation in that respect. We believe that a new UK-wide definition is desirable. Although none was in prospect at the time that the McFadden commission was carrying out its work, I believe that there is the prospect of such a definition.
The Cabinet Office strategy unit produced a report on charities and the wider not-for-profit sector. Johann Lamont made a valuable contribution about that sector. We need to consider some of the issues in relation to co-operative organisations that she raised, including how money and resources are owned and distributed.
The Cabinet Office strategy unit report gives us an opportunity to consider a modernised definition of charities that is based on the principle of public benefit and a wider range of purposes. Such a definition could encompass issues such as the promotion of human rights, which is all too often ignored, and the advancement of amateur sport, in which many organisations in this country play a valuable part.
I believe that the strategy unit definition reflects the spirit of the McFadden recommendations. Indeed, the SCVO has described the continuing role of the Inland Revenue in determining charitable status as unnecessary and problematic. It would probably be possible to legislate for charitable status to be conferred in Scotland by the regulator, using either the UK or a different definition.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
SNP
The final item of business today is a members' business debate on motion S1M-3961, in the name of Jackie Baillie, on reform of charity law.
Motion debated,
That the Parliament shares the Scottish Executive's commitment to progressing the reform of charity law; recognises that this will assist in developing the c...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab):
Lab
As members know all too well, charities form a vital part of Scottish life. Their unique qualities mean that they are especially well equipped to provide to ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
Because the stage 3 debate on the Mental Health (Care and Treatment) (Scotland) Bill runs on tomorrow, the clock runs on as well. I will advise members when ...
Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
I apologise for having to rush off before the debate ends.It will not have escaped Jackie Baillie's notice that I have not signed the motion that we are deba...
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con):
Con
I declare an interest, as I am the trustee of a small charitable trust. I am also active in some other charities, including the Edinburgh support group of Ho...
The Minister for Tourism, Culture and Sport (Mike Watson):
Lab
Yes, why not? I was just responding to Lord James Douglas-Hamilton's comments on the act the name of which I will not repeat: it seemed to me to be the mothe...
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton:
Con
I thank Mike Watson for his contribution.We need easily accessible information to help to protect against bogus charities and to make it easy for members of ...
Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD):
LD
I congratulate Jackie Baillie on getting the debate. Her personal commitment, as a minister and as a back bencher, to charities is certainly well known. She ...
Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green):
Green
I congratulate Jackie Baillie on initiating the debate and on the motion, which I signed. I agree with Tricia Marwick that four years is a long time for 50,0...
Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab):
Lab
I congratulate Jackie Baillie on bringing the debate to the Parliament. I had been looking forward to it, but then we heard from Tricia Marwick and Donald Go...
Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP):
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Johann Lamont:
Lab
If the member lets me finish my point.In its deliberations on the voluntary sector, the Social Justice Committee said that there had to be progress on charit...
Linda Fabiani (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Like my colleague Tricia Marwick, I did not sign up to Jackie Baillie's motion. That was not because I did not want it to be discussed—I want it to be discus...
Brian Fitzpatrick (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab):
Lab
I speak with some trepidation, given the substantial experience of many of the members who have spoken in the debate and their contributions to the work of c...
Linda Fabiani:
SNP
Will the member give way?
Brian Fitzpatrick:
Lab
On gracelessness? Certainly.
Linda Fabiani:
SNP
That is the kind of attitude that I have problems with—the attitude that, as the debate is about the voluntary sector and charity law, it is not about politi...
Brian Fitzpatrick:
Lab
I am obliged to Linda Fabiani for that corroboration of my point.I wanted to make a point about the way in which people come to be involved in charities and ...
Jackie Baillie:
Lab
Name one.
Brian Fitzpatrick:
Lab
I was thinking of 1603, actually.The opportunity to conduct that overhaul will be available to us in the next session of Parliament. It can be done through a...
The Deputy Minister for Justice (Hugh Henry):
Lab
Jackie Baillie has done us a favour in giving us an opportunity to focus yet again on the critical role that charities and voluntary organisations play in th...
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
The Minister for Social Justice and I were both members of the Social Justice Committee before Johann Lamont became a member of the committee. At that time, ...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
I was about to say that, as far as using the same definition or a different one is concerned, we have ruled nothing out. However, we should bear it in mind t...
Cathy Peattie (Falkirk East) (Lab):
Lab
As Johann Lamont pointed out, the voluntary sector does not just include organisations that are involved in social justice; it covers sport, the environment,...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
I agree entirely with that comment.I want to return to points that members made about the need for legislation and about putting the regulator on to a statut...
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton:
Con
Is the subject suitable for a committee investigation, or even a committee bill, given that such bills have been one of the Parliament's triumphs?
Hugh Henry:
Lab
That is entirely a matter for the new committees of the next Parliament. Over the first four years of the Parliament, the committees have demonstrated their ...
Meeting closed at 17:46.