Chamber
Plenary, 19 Mar 2003
19 Mar 2003 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Charity Law Reform
Like my colleague Tricia Marwick, I did not sign up to Jackie Baillie's motion. That was not because I did not want it to be discussed—I want it to be discussed—and it was not because I have any problems with the commitment of Jackie Baillie and loads of other members to reforming charity law. However, I wonder a wee bit about the Executive's commitment—after all, four years down the line and four social justice ministers later, we do not yet have a bill on charity law reform to look at. Way back in 1999, the then Minister for Communities, Wendy Alexander, pledged to reform charity law in Scotland. However, after the McFadden report, it was an inordinately long time before the Executive responded properly.
Charity law reform is a social justice issue—it is interesting that social justice ministers have spoken about it and that the Social Justice Committee has been pushing it. Hugh Henry should not take this point personally, but I am concerned that the issue is now under the justice remit—last week in the chamber, Jim Wallace answered questions about charity law reform. That worries me, because the ethos of each portfolio and department is different. The social justice ethos is, "We can do this and we want to do it, so how are we going do it?" I often feel that the justice ethos is, "Why can't we achieve this?" I worry that that has held things up.
Another issue that could have held up reform is the on-going problem that we have with the authorities that deal with the voluntary sector. The amount of knowledge and expertise within the voluntary sector and the fact that people in the voluntary sector can run the agenda themselves are sometimes not recognised. That is down not so much to members of the Parliament or ministers—I do not doubt for a minute that our social justice ministers have all recognised the value of the voluntary sector—as to officials, who sometimes have a problem with recognising those facts. I talk from experience, having worked for a voluntary organisation. I know that there is a perception that people who work for voluntary organisations or charities are not right up there in knowing how to move forward—they are perceived as a bit wishy-washy. I would like ministers to take that problem on board.
There is an on-going example of that problem. I notice in the Executive's response to the McFadden report that the Inland Revenue charities register will be overhauled and reviewed, so that charities that no longer exist are removed from it. The Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations has taken such an approach for 10 years, with its charities register in Scotland database, which is constantly updated and as a result is the most modern and up-to-date register of where charities are at in Scotland today. Why cannot we use that? Why cannot the Executive say, "The information is there; we don't need to waste time or money on doing another survey of the Inland Revenue register"? I ask the minister how much that will cost, how long it will take and whether the process will delay reform yet again.
I have two quick points to finish. Can we get the ethos of social justice back into charity law reform? Can we all make the commitment that, no matter who is in the Executive after 1 May, charity law reform will be a high priority on everybody's agenda?
Charity law reform is a social justice issue—it is interesting that social justice ministers have spoken about it and that the Social Justice Committee has been pushing it. Hugh Henry should not take this point personally, but I am concerned that the issue is now under the justice remit—last week in the chamber, Jim Wallace answered questions about charity law reform. That worries me, because the ethos of each portfolio and department is different. The social justice ethos is, "We can do this and we want to do it, so how are we going do it?" I often feel that the justice ethos is, "Why can't we achieve this?" I worry that that has held things up.
Another issue that could have held up reform is the on-going problem that we have with the authorities that deal with the voluntary sector. The amount of knowledge and expertise within the voluntary sector and the fact that people in the voluntary sector can run the agenda themselves are sometimes not recognised. That is down not so much to members of the Parliament or ministers—I do not doubt for a minute that our social justice ministers have all recognised the value of the voluntary sector—as to officials, who sometimes have a problem with recognising those facts. I talk from experience, having worked for a voluntary organisation. I know that there is a perception that people who work for voluntary organisations or charities are not right up there in knowing how to move forward—they are perceived as a bit wishy-washy. I would like ministers to take that problem on board.
There is an on-going example of that problem. I notice in the Executive's response to the McFadden report that the Inland Revenue charities register will be overhauled and reviewed, so that charities that no longer exist are removed from it. The Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations has taken such an approach for 10 years, with its charities register in Scotland database, which is constantly updated and as a result is the most modern and up-to-date register of where charities are at in Scotland today. Why cannot we use that? Why cannot the Executive say, "The information is there; we don't need to waste time or money on doing another survey of the Inland Revenue register"? I ask the minister how much that will cost, how long it will take and whether the process will delay reform yet again.
I have two quick points to finish. Can we get the ethos of social justice back into charity law reform? Can we all make the commitment that, no matter who is in the Executive after 1 May, charity law reform will be a high priority on everybody's agenda?
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
SNP
The final item of business today is a members' business debate on motion S1M-3961, in the name of Jackie Baillie, on reform of charity law.
Motion debated,
That the Parliament shares the Scottish Executive's commitment to progressing the reform of charity law; recognises that this will assist in developing the c...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab):
Lab
As members know all too well, charities form a vital part of Scottish life. Their unique qualities mean that they are especially well equipped to provide to ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
Because the stage 3 debate on the Mental Health (Care and Treatment) (Scotland) Bill runs on tomorrow, the clock runs on as well. I will advise members when ...
Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
I apologise for having to rush off before the debate ends.It will not have escaped Jackie Baillie's notice that I have not signed the motion that we are deba...
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con):
Con
I declare an interest, as I am the trustee of a small charitable trust. I am also active in some other charities, including the Edinburgh support group of Ho...
The Minister for Tourism, Culture and Sport (Mike Watson):
Lab
Yes, why not? I was just responding to Lord James Douglas-Hamilton's comments on the act the name of which I will not repeat: it seemed to me to be the mothe...
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton:
Con
I thank Mike Watson for his contribution.We need easily accessible information to help to protect against bogus charities and to make it easy for members of ...
Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD):
LD
I congratulate Jackie Baillie on getting the debate. Her personal commitment, as a minister and as a back bencher, to charities is certainly well known. She ...
Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green):
Green
I congratulate Jackie Baillie on initiating the debate and on the motion, which I signed. I agree with Tricia Marwick that four years is a long time for 50,0...
Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab):
Lab
I congratulate Jackie Baillie on bringing the debate to the Parliament. I had been looking forward to it, but then we heard from Tricia Marwick and Donald Go...
Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP):
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Johann Lamont:
Lab
If the member lets me finish my point.In its deliberations on the voluntary sector, the Social Justice Committee said that there had to be progress on charit...
Linda Fabiani (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Like my colleague Tricia Marwick, I did not sign up to Jackie Baillie's motion. That was not because I did not want it to be discussed—I want it to be discus...
Brian Fitzpatrick (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab):
Lab
I speak with some trepidation, given the substantial experience of many of the members who have spoken in the debate and their contributions to the work of c...
Linda Fabiani:
SNP
Will the member give way?
Brian Fitzpatrick:
Lab
On gracelessness? Certainly.
Linda Fabiani:
SNP
That is the kind of attitude that I have problems with—the attitude that, as the debate is about the voluntary sector and charity law, it is not about politi...
Brian Fitzpatrick:
Lab
I am obliged to Linda Fabiani for that corroboration of my point.I wanted to make a point about the way in which people come to be involved in charities and ...
Jackie Baillie:
Lab
Name one.
Brian Fitzpatrick:
Lab
I was thinking of 1603, actually.The opportunity to conduct that overhaul will be available to us in the next session of Parliament. It can be done through a...
The Deputy Minister for Justice (Hugh Henry):
Lab
Jackie Baillie has done us a favour in giving us an opportunity to focus yet again on the critical role that charities and voluntary organisations play in th...
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
The Minister for Social Justice and I were both members of the Social Justice Committee before Johann Lamont became a member of the committee. At that time, ...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
I was about to say that, as far as using the same definition or a different one is concerned, we have ruled nothing out. However, we should bear it in mind t...
Cathy Peattie (Falkirk East) (Lab):
Lab
As Johann Lamont pointed out, the voluntary sector does not just include organisations that are involved in social justice; it covers sport, the environment,...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
I agree entirely with that comment.I want to return to points that members made about the need for legislation and about putting the regulator on to a statut...
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton:
Con
Is the subject suitable for a committee investigation, or even a committee bill, given that such bills have been one of the Parliament's triumphs?
Hugh Henry:
Lab
That is entirely a matter for the new committees of the next Parliament. Over the first four years of the Parliament, the committees have demonstrated their ...
Meeting closed at 17:46.