Chamber
Plenary, 19 Mar 2003
19 Mar 2003 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Charity Law Reform
If the member lets me finish my point.
In its deliberations on the voluntary sector, the Social Justice Committee said that there had to be progress on charitable law. I am sure that the Executive will take that on board.
I want to make a few points before I move on to the substance of what I want to say. The issue is not just about legislation; it is about respecting and understanding the sector, and the Executive has an excellent record on that. We should also not be over-legislating for the sector. I was speaking to a constituent who, for the past 25 years and because she wanted to, ran a lunch club for a group of local pensioners. She has now stopped running the club because of the level of regulation and the lack of respect for the expertise of the women who ran the club out of the goodness of their hearts. They have simply stopped running the club. We have to be careful about that.
I welcome the work done by Jean McFadden and I recognise the degree of commitment that the commission has shown and the body of evidence that it has provided for us to use in moving forward.
As Jackie Baillie said, many organisations are charitable that we might expect would not be, and others are not charitable that we might expect would be. Given the perceptions of what a charity should be, which we might or might not share, that is central to the debate. We want to make the decision based on principles that have been developed through discussion and debate rather than through the deliberations of the Inland Revenue. That is why we need legislation.
The discussions will not always be easy, particularly for organisations that imagine that they are charities, and which might currently be charities, but whose benefit to the public might not be evident to the rest of us. The role of co-operatives highlights the importance of that debate—and I declare an interest.
The co-operative movement is broad and encompasses a range of groups and organisations. Because co-operatives often provide dividends to their members, they would be excluded from charitable status under what is being proposed—the McFadden commission considered the issue. However, co-operatives genuinely benefit the public in their communities, not least because they offer work opportunities to people within local communities and often provide a service that no other organisation would be able to provide. Co-operatives are rooted in an understanding of what their local communities need. Their position would be tested in the debate surrounding a charities bill, and discussion of such interesting and challenging issues could be developed.
We would be kidding ourselves on if we thought that there was a lack of will simply because the issues that have to be addressed are complex. We want charities legislation that can add to the support for the important work of charities and voluntary organisations in our communities not just because of what it concludes and what is enacted, but because of the legislative process, which allows further discussion and acknowledgement by all who are involved in making decisions of the key role of charities, organisations and people within our communities who genuinely provide a public benefit for us all.
I congratulate Jackie Baillie again. I am sure that the debate will put down a marker that this is one of the important jobs that must be done in the next Parliament, to build on the excellent work that has already been done and to recognise the key role of the voluntary and charitable sectors in Scotland.
In its deliberations on the voluntary sector, the Social Justice Committee said that there had to be progress on charitable law. I am sure that the Executive will take that on board.
I want to make a few points before I move on to the substance of what I want to say. The issue is not just about legislation; it is about respecting and understanding the sector, and the Executive has an excellent record on that. We should also not be over-legislating for the sector. I was speaking to a constituent who, for the past 25 years and because she wanted to, ran a lunch club for a group of local pensioners. She has now stopped running the club because of the level of regulation and the lack of respect for the expertise of the women who ran the club out of the goodness of their hearts. They have simply stopped running the club. We have to be careful about that.
I welcome the work done by Jean McFadden and I recognise the degree of commitment that the commission has shown and the body of evidence that it has provided for us to use in moving forward.
As Jackie Baillie said, many organisations are charitable that we might expect would not be, and others are not charitable that we might expect would be. Given the perceptions of what a charity should be, which we might or might not share, that is central to the debate. We want to make the decision based on principles that have been developed through discussion and debate rather than through the deliberations of the Inland Revenue. That is why we need legislation.
The discussions will not always be easy, particularly for organisations that imagine that they are charities, and which might currently be charities, but whose benefit to the public might not be evident to the rest of us. The role of co-operatives highlights the importance of that debate—and I declare an interest.
The co-operative movement is broad and encompasses a range of groups and organisations. Because co-operatives often provide dividends to their members, they would be excluded from charitable status under what is being proposed—the McFadden commission considered the issue. However, co-operatives genuinely benefit the public in their communities, not least because they offer work opportunities to people within local communities and often provide a service that no other organisation would be able to provide. Co-operatives are rooted in an understanding of what their local communities need. Their position would be tested in the debate surrounding a charities bill, and discussion of such interesting and challenging issues could be developed.
We would be kidding ourselves on if we thought that there was a lack of will simply because the issues that have to be addressed are complex. We want charities legislation that can add to the support for the important work of charities and voluntary organisations in our communities not just because of what it concludes and what is enacted, but because of the legislative process, which allows further discussion and acknowledgement by all who are involved in making decisions of the key role of charities, organisations and people within our communities who genuinely provide a public benefit for us all.
I congratulate Jackie Baillie again. I am sure that the debate will put down a marker that this is one of the important jobs that must be done in the next Parliament, to build on the excellent work that has already been done and to recognise the key role of the voluntary and charitable sectors in Scotland.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
SNP
The final item of business today is a members' business debate on motion S1M-3961, in the name of Jackie Baillie, on reform of charity law.
Motion debated,
That the Parliament shares the Scottish Executive's commitment to progressing the reform of charity law; recognises that this will assist in developing the c...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab):
Lab
As members know all too well, charities form a vital part of Scottish life. Their unique qualities mean that they are especially well equipped to provide to ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
Because the stage 3 debate on the Mental Health (Care and Treatment) (Scotland) Bill runs on tomorrow, the clock runs on as well. I will advise members when ...
Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
I apologise for having to rush off before the debate ends.It will not have escaped Jackie Baillie's notice that I have not signed the motion that we are deba...
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con):
Con
I declare an interest, as I am the trustee of a small charitable trust. I am also active in some other charities, including the Edinburgh support group of Ho...
The Minister for Tourism, Culture and Sport (Mike Watson):
Lab
Yes, why not? I was just responding to Lord James Douglas-Hamilton's comments on the act the name of which I will not repeat: it seemed to me to be the mothe...
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton:
Con
I thank Mike Watson for his contribution.We need easily accessible information to help to protect against bogus charities and to make it easy for members of ...
Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD):
LD
I congratulate Jackie Baillie on getting the debate. Her personal commitment, as a minister and as a back bencher, to charities is certainly well known. She ...
Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green):
Green
I congratulate Jackie Baillie on initiating the debate and on the motion, which I signed. I agree with Tricia Marwick that four years is a long time for 50,0...
Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab):
Lab
I congratulate Jackie Baillie on bringing the debate to the Parliament. I had been looking forward to it, but then we heard from Tricia Marwick and Donald Go...
Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP):
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Johann Lamont:
Lab
If the member lets me finish my point.In its deliberations on the voluntary sector, the Social Justice Committee said that there had to be progress on charit...
Linda Fabiani (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Like my colleague Tricia Marwick, I did not sign up to Jackie Baillie's motion. That was not because I did not want it to be discussed—I want it to be discus...
Brian Fitzpatrick (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab):
Lab
I speak with some trepidation, given the substantial experience of many of the members who have spoken in the debate and their contributions to the work of c...
Linda Fabiani:
SNP
Will the member give way?
Brian Fitzpatrick:
Lab
On gracelessness? Certainly.
Linda Fabiani:
SNP
That is the kind of attitude that I have problems with—the attitude that, as the debate is about the voluntary sector and charity law, it is not about politi...
Brian Fitzpatrick:
Lab
I am obliged to Linda Fabiani for that corroboration of my point.I wanted to make a point about the way in which people come to be involved in charities and ...
Jackie Baillie:
Lab
Name one.
Brian Fitzpatrick:
Lab
I was thinking of 1603, actually.The opportunity to conduct that overhaul will be available to us in the next session of Parliament. It can be done through a...
The Deputy Minister for Justice (Hugh Henry):
Lab
Jackie Baillie has done us a favour in giving us an opportunity to focus yet again on the critical role that charities and voluntary organisations play in th...
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
The Minister for Social Justice and I were both members of the Social Justice Committee before Johann Lamont became a member of the committee. At that time, ...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
I was about to say that, as far as using the same definition or a different one is concerned, we have ruled nothing out. However, we should bear it in mind t...
Cathy Peattie (Falkirk East) (Lab):
Lab
As Johann Lamont pointed out, the voluntary sector does not just include organisations that are involved in social justice; it covers sport, the environment,...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
I agree entirely with that comment.I want to return to points that members made about the need for legislation and about putting the regulator on to a statut...
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton:
Con
Is the subject suitable for a committee investigation, or even a committee bill, given that such bills have been one of the Parliament's triumphs?
Hugh Henry:
Lab
That is entirely a matter for the new committees of the next Parliament. Over the first four years of the Parliament, the committees have demonstrated their ...
Meeting closed at 17:46.