Chamber
Plenary, 19 Mar 2003
19 Mar 2003 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Charity Law Reform
I apologise for having to rush off before the debate ends.
It will not have escaped Jackie Baillie's notice that I have not signed the motion that we are debating tonight. Although I acknowledge Jackie Baillie's personal commitment to charity law reform, I do not recognise a Scottish Executive commitment to progress reform of charity law as stated in the motion.
Charity law reform should already be a reality. As we come to the end of the Scottish Parliament's first session, it is unacceptable that the Executive has not legislated on the matter. Charity law reform would have found all-party support in the Parliament—I note that members of all parties have asked questions about it from 1999 and, if we look around the chamber now, we can see the great groundswell of support in the Parliament for charity law reform.
The McFadden commission was established in January 2000 and reported in May 2001, as Jackie Baillie said, after which the Executive decided to consult on the commission's recommendations. That consultation ended on 30 September 2001, but although eighteen months have passed, there is still no bill. The Executive has let down the charities and voluntary organisations in Scotland, which realise how vital charity law reform is.
Jackie Baillie was right: for years policy officers from the SCVO urged charity law reform legislation at Westminster and the SCVO had high hopes that, in the first session of the Scottish Parliament, the Executive would introduce such legislation. At the first Justice and Home Affairs Committee meeting in June 1999, I highlighted the need for charity law reform. I said:
"One of the major problems faced by charities and voluntary organisations in Scotland is that there is no regulatory framework for them: charities are allowed to do whatever they want. Unlike the Charity Commission for England and Wales, which has regulatory powers of investigation, the equivalent office in Scotland is small and has virtually no powers. Anybody in Scotland can set up a charity with very little investigation even when things go wrong. … We would do a great service to the voluntary and charitable sector in Scotland if we could initiate legislation on that."—[Official Report, Justice and Home Affairs Committee, 29 June 1999; c 11-12.]
At that time, I even considered introducing a member's bill on the subject. Unfortunately, I was talked out of doing so by Martin Sime of the SCVO while we chatted at the Parliament's official opening in July—I am sure that he remembers the conversation. He urged me not to introduce a member's bill because he believed confidently that the Executive would legislate: how disappointed he must be.
The Executive has let down charities in Scotland. Jackie Baillie spoke about the need for positive action, but it is a pity that we did not have positive action four years ago. I assure members that there will be positive action in the Scottish Parliament's next session, because we must ensure that we have charity law reform. It must be a priority for everybody.
It will not have escaped Jackie Baillie's notice that I have not signed the motion that we are debating tonight. Although I acknowledge Jackie Baillie's personal commitment to charity law reform, I do not recognise a Scottish Executive commitment to progress reform of charity law as stated in the motion.
Charity law reform should already be a reality. As we come to the end of the Scottish Parliament's first session, it is unacceptable that the Executive has not legislated on the matter. Charity law reform would have found all-party support in the Parliament—I note that members of all parties have asked questions about it from 1999 and, if we look around the chamber now, we can see the great groundswell of support in the Parliament for charity law reform.
The McFadden commission was established in January 2000 and reported in May 2001, as Jackie Baillie said, after which the Executive decided to consult on the commission's recommendations. That consultation ended on 30 September 2001, but although eighteen months have passed, there is still no bill. The Executive has let down the charities and voluntary organisations in Scotland, which realise how vital charity law reform is.
Jackie Baillie was right: for years policy officers from the SCVO urged charity law reform legislation at Westminster and the SCVO had high hopes that, in the first session of the Scottish Parliament, the Executive would introduce such legislation. At the first Justice and Home Affairs Committee meeting in June 1999, I highlighted the need for charity law reform. I said:
"One of the major problems faced by charities and voluntary organisations in Scotland is that there is no regulatory framework for them: charities are allowed to do whatever they want. Unlike the Charity Commission for England and Wales, which has regulatory powers of investigation, the equivalent office in Scotland is small and has virtually no powers. Anybody in Scotland can set up a charity with very little investigation even when things go wrong. … We would do a great service to the voluntary and charitable sector in Scotland if we could initiate legislation on that."—[Official Report, Justice and Home Affairs Committee, 29 June 1999; c 11-12.]
At that time, I even considered introducing a member's bill on the subject. Unfortunately, I was talked out of doing so by Martin Sime of the SCVO while we chatted at the Parliament's official opening in July—I am sure that he remembers the conversation. He urged me not to introduce a member's bill because he believed confidently that the Executive would legislate: how disappointed he must be.
The Executive has let down charities in Scotland. Jackie Baillie spoke about the need for positive action, but it is a pity that we did not have positive action four years ago. I assure members that there will be positive action in the Scottish Parliament's next session, because we must ensure that we have charity law reform. It must be a priority for everybody.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
SNP
The final item of business today is a members' business debate on motion S1M-3961, in the name of Jackie Baillie, on reform of charity law.
Motion debated,
That the Parliament shares the Scottish Executive's commitment to progressing the reform of charity law; recognises that this will assist in developing the c...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab):
Lab
As members know all too well, charities form a vital part of Scottish life. Their unique qualities mean that they are especially well equipped to provide to ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
Because the stage 3 debate on the Mental Health (Care and Treatment) (Scotland) Bill runs on tomorrow, the clock runs on as well. I will advise members when ...
Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
I apologise for having to rush off before the debate ends.It will not have escaped Jackie Baillie's notice that I have not signed the motion that we are deba...
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con):
Con
I declare an interest, as I am the trustee of a small charitable trust. I am also active in some other charities, including the Edinburgh support group of Ho...
The Minister for Tourism, Culture and Sport (Mike Watson):
Lab
Yes, why not? I was just responding to Lord James Douglas-Hamilton's comments on the act the name of which I will not repeat: it seemed to me to be the mothe...
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton:
Con
I thank Mike Watson for his contribution.We need easily accessible information to help to protect against bogus charities and to make it easy for members of ...
Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD):
LD
I congratulate Jackie Baillie on getting the debate. Her personal commitment, as a minister and as a back bencher, to charities is certainly well known. She ...
Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green):
Green
I congratulate Jackie Baillie on initiating the debate and on the motion, which I signed. I agree with Tricia Marwick that four years is a long time for 50,0...
Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab):
Lab
I congratulate Jackie Baillie on bringing the debate to the Parliament. I had been looking forward to it, but then we heard from Tricia Marwick and Donald Go...
Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP):
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Johann Lamont:
Lab
If the member lets me finish my point.In its deliberations on the voluntary sector, the Social Justice Committee said that there had to be progress on charit...
Linda Fabiani (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Like my colleague Tricia Marwick, I did not sign up to Jackie Baillie's motion. That was not because I did not want it to be discussed—I want it to be discus...
Brian Fitzpatrick (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab):
Lab
I speak with some trepidation, given the substantial experience of many of the members who have spoken in the debate and their contributions to the work of c...
Linda Fabiani:
SNP
Will the member give way?
Brian Fitzpatrick:
Lab
On gracelessness? Certainly.
Linda Fabiani:
SNP
That is the kind of attitude that I have problems with—the attitude that, as the debate is about the voluntary sector and charity law, it is not about politi...
Brian Fitzpatrick:
Lab
I am obliged to Linda Fabiani for that corroboration of my point.I wanted to make a point about the way in which people come to be involved in charities and ...
Jackie Baillie:
Lab
Name one.
Brian Fitzpatrick:
Lab
I was thinking of 1603, actually.The opportunity to conduct that overhaul will be available to us in the next session of Parliament. It can be done through a...
The Deputy Minister for Justice (Hugh Henry):
Lab
Jackie Baillie has done us a favour in giving us an opportunity to focus yet again on the critical role that charities and voluntary organisations play in th...
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
The Minister for Social Justice and I were both members of the Social Justice Committee before Johann Lamont became a member of the committee. At that time, ...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
I was about to say that, as far as using the same definition or a different one is concerned, we have ruled nothing out. However, we should bear it in mind t...
Cathy Peattie (Falkirk East) (Lab):
Lab
As Johann Lamont pointed out, the voluntary sector does not just include organisations that are involved in social justice; it covers sport, the environment,...
Hugh Henry:
Lab
I agree entirely with that comment.I want to return to points that members made about the need for legislation and about putting the regulator on to a statut...
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton:
Con
Is the subject suitable for a committee investigation, or even a committee bill, given that such bills have been one of the Parliament's triumphs?
Hugh Henry:
Lab
That is entirely a matter for the new committees of the next Parliament. Over the first four years of the Parliament, the committees have demonstrated their ...
Meeting closed at 17:46.