Chamber
Plenary, 13 Mar 2003
13 Mar 2003 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
International Situation
In the interests of having a quality public debate about a war that the people of this country will face in the ensuing few days, we should concentrate on the dangers of such a war rather than play Bristow Muldoon's political games.
I want to make two clear points at the outset of my argument. First, the SNP and I will always support Scottish armed forces. Hundreds of Scotland-based servicemen and women are being deployed to the gulf and part of our support for our troops is our telling the Government—the people who give the orders—when it is wrong to commit our troops to action. Our courageous and professional servicemen and servicewomen expect to be deployed as a last resort when all other options have been exhausted. Today, although the inspection regime is delivering results, that is patently not the case.
The second point that I want to stress is that there is no disagreement in the Parliament that Saddam's barbaric regime is appalling and unacceptable. I find it offensive that those of us—in all parties—who oppose war are lectured on the nature of Saddam's regime. We are all well aware of Saddam's atrocities, but members of the Conservative Government were similarly aware when they approved the building of an Iraqi chemical weapons plant when Saddam was using poison gas during the Iran-Iraq war. Therefore, I will take no lectures from the gung-ho faction that warns of the dangers of Saddam's weapons of mass destruction. Those dangers have been heightened by the actions of previous UK and US Governments, which should be ashamed of their actions.
More than 50 years ago, the countries of the world came together in the city of San Francisco to establish the United Nations. Their primary aim, which was set out in the first words of the UN charter, is:
"to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war".
Crucially, the charter sets out that
"armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest."
The common interest is not the interest of the United States or the United Kingdom, but the interest of the world as a whole.
Nobody has given the United States monopoly power to decide what the interests of the rest of the world should be—that attitude is at best patronising and, at worst, profoundly dangerous. The proper forum for deciding the world's common interest is the United Nations and not the oval office. The United Nations has spoken; any unilateral war launched against Iraq would be contrary to international law. In a significant intervention, the Secretary-General of the United Nations, Kofi Annan, said only on Monday:
"If the US and others were to go outside the Council and take military action, it would not be in conformity with the charter."
From the world's top diplomat, that is as damning an assessment as it is possible to get.
It is clear that, as we debate the issue today—perhaps days from war—there is no UN mandate for military action in Iraq and there will, in the foreseeable future, be no UN mandate for military action in Iraq. For those of us who believe in the rule of international law, that means that there should be no military action in Iraq.
I want to make two clear points at the outset of my argument. First, the SNP and I will always support Scottish armed forces. Hundreds of Scotland-based servicemen and women are being deployed to the gulf and part of our support for our troops is our telling the Government—the people who give the orders—when it is wrong to commit our troops to action. Our courageous and professional servicemen and servicewomen expect to be deployed as a last resort when all other options have been exhausted. Today, although the inspection regime is delivering results, that is patently not the case.
The second point that I want to stress is that there is no disagreement in the Parliament that Saddam's barbaric regime is appalling and unacceptable. I find it offensive that those of us—in all parties—who oppose war are lectured on the nature of Saddam's regime. We are all well aware of Saddam's atrocities, but members of the Conservative Government were similarly aware when they approved the building of an Iraqi chemical weapons plant when Saddam was using poison gas during the Iran-Iraq war. Therefore, I will take no lectures from the gung-ho faction that warns of the dangers of Saddam's weapons of mass destruction. Those dangers have been heightened by the actions of previous UK and US Governments, which should be ashamed of their actions.
More than 50 years ago, the countries of the world came together in the city of San Francisco to establish the United Nations. Their primary aim, which was set out in the first words of the UN charter, is:
"to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war".
Crucially, the charter sets out that
"armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest."
The common interest is not the interest of the United States or the United Kingdom, but the interest of the world as a whole.
Nobody has given the United States monopoly power to decide what the interests of the rest of the world should be—that attitude is at best patronising and, at worst, profoundly dangerous. The proper forum for deciding the world's common interest is the United Nations and not the oval office. The United Nations has spoken; any unilateral war launched against Iraq would be contrary to international law. In a significant intervention, the Secretary-General of the United Nations, Kofi Annan, said only on Monday:
"If the US and others were to go outside the Council and take military action, it would not be in conformity with the charter."
From the world's top diplomat, that is as damning an assessment as it is possible to get.
It is clear that, as we debate the issue today—perhaps days from war—there is no UN mandate for military action in Iraq and there will, in the foreseeable future, be no UN mandate for military action in Iraq. For those of us who believe in the rule of international law, that means that there should be no military action in Iraq.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel):
NPA
Good morning. Our first item of business is a debate on motion S1M-4012, in the name of John Swinney, on the current international situation.I must tell the ...
Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP):
SNP
Two months ago, the Scottish National Party led a debate in this, our national Parliament. That day we set out our "deep and serious concern" that the United...
Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab):
Lab
Does Mr Swinney accept that there are serious people on both sides of the argument and that people in Scotland do not speak with a unanimous voice on the iss...
Mr Swinney:
SNP
I could not agree more with Johann Lamont. That is why we are having a three-hour debate in my party's parliamentary time, which will give those of every sha...
Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab):
Lab
On the basis of Mr Swinney's argument today, does he maintain that the SNP was right to oppose the ending of ethnic cleansing in Kosovo in 1999?
Mr Swinney:
SNP
In the interests of having a quality public debate about a war that the people of this country will face in the ensuing few days, we should concentrate on th...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
I am obliged to Mr Swinney for giving way. He rightly puts much emphasis on international law. However, does he accept that for every statement on internatio...
Mr Swinney:
SNP
If Murdo Fraser will bear with me, I will address that point directly.The United Nations Security Council resolution 1441, which was adopted on 8 November, i...
Members:
Hear, hear.
Mr Swinney:
SNP
I am glad to hear that the Liberal Democrats agree with that point. Nowhere in resolution 1441 is there a specific authorisation of force. The resolution cal...
The First Minister (Mr Jack McConnell):
Lab
Will Mr Swinney acknowledge that Mr Robert Black has been seriously wrong in the past on issues of concern to this country, including the Lockerbie disaster,...
Mr Swinney:
SNP
His running down of distinguished Scottish academics is not exactly a tribute to the First Minister's stance.
The First Minister:
Lab
It was wrong to run down Scots law when that law worked in the international interest and in the court in the Netherlands. Mr Black was wrong then and could ...
Mr Swinney:
SNP
If that is what the First Minister is reduced to, it says everything about what he has to contribute to the debate.Professor Black has further argued that th...
Johann Lamont:
Lab
Does the member therefore agree that the concept of an unreasonable veto exists and does he accept that those of us who are concerned about the Palestinian p...
Mr Swinney:
SNP
I ask Johann Lamont merely to go and explain that to the Palestinian people, whose aspirations have been thwarted by the vetoes that I mentioned.Mr Blair sho...
Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD):
LD
Does Mr Swinney agree that the inspections are achieving containment and that Iraq is currently no threat to us or to its neighbours?
Mr Swinney:
SNP
That is a fair point.
Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
Does the member believe that Iraq would have made the recent concessions if there had not been the pressure of having troops on its borders?
Mr Swinney:
SNP
The concessions have been brought about by the pressure of the international community to ensure that Iraq complies with resolutions that have been passed by...
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
I thank Mr Swinney for taking less than the allotted time, despite taking interventions.
Mr Jack McConnell (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab):
Lab
In October 1977, I went on my first demonstration. We were protesting against apartheid and demanding the end of an evil regime. Britain was on the right sid...
Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP):
SSP
I am glad that the minister protested against apartheid in 1977. Whose side is he on now, however? Is he on the side of Nelson Mandela, who is against this w...
Mr McConnell:
Lab
I am on the side of the people of Iraq. I remind Mr Sheridan that, for decades—well over a century—socialists have supported those who are being persecuted a...
Mr Swinney:
SNP
I hear what the First Minister says about the UK Government's attitude to a second resolution in the UN. Will the First Minister support military action if t...
Mr McConnell:
Lab
I have three things to say in answer to that question. First, it would be wrong, in this country and elsewhere, to comment on hypothetical situations when th...
Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Nonsense.
Mr McConnell:
Lab
That day, Andrew Wilson said that Alex Salmond was right to describe that action as "unpardonable folly". However, he was not right; he was wrong. That examp...
Mr Swinney:
SNP
The First Minister said that he would not comment on hypothetical situations, but then went on to comment on actions that the French Government might take. T...
Mr McConnell:
Lab
I will address that point. The amendment that I will move makes the point that action should be authorised by the United Nations.Difficult decisions must be ...