Chamber
Plenary, 20 Feb 2003
20 Feb 2003 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill
It is regrettable that there has been insufficient time to give full attention to many of the issues that were before the committee. To give just one example from this morning's debate, the police use of firearms was not even discussed. That is a grave defect in our system. I note that when the Deputy First Minister was challenged on television last night, he recognised that that issue needs to be addressed. I put down a marker that our procedures will need to be looked at so that such matters are not neglected in the future.
We won a number of important victories in the bill. First, we were happy to see go the ludicrous pilot scheme that would have sent 16 and 17-year-olds to children's hearings. Secondly, there was the issue of bail for convicted murderers. The Deputy First Minister indicated that although he was satisfied with the existing arrangements, he was certainly not prepared to defend having granny murderers roaming the streets. The amendments that were introduced give greater protection for the public and are a victory for common sense. Thirdly, the provisions on smacking that were totally unenforceable were removed, although it is our view that unnecessary provisions remain.
Some of the amendments that we proposed were rejected. For example, our proposal that fines should be taken from benefits could have reduced the number of people going to prison for fine default and increased the proportion of fines collected. Another amendment that was rejected was our proposal that a greater range of disposals should be made available to children's hearings. Thirdly, we wanted more honesty in sentencing. We are not surprised that our medicine was too strong for the Administration, but we are pleased that, as a result of vigorous and successful campaigning, the worst excesses of the bill have not been allowed to stain this future justice act.
The bill began as the Deputy First Minister's flagship bill, but he has had to make so many U-turns during its passage that it can now be described as a bill of the Parliament rather than of the Executive. Although the bill does not go as far as we would like and still has grave imperfections, it represents a considerable improvement on what went before.
We won a number of important victories in the bill. First, we were happy to see go the ludicrous pilot scheme that would have sent 16 and 17-year-olds to children's hearings. Secondly, there was the issue of bail for convicted murderers. The Deputy First Minister indicated that although he was satisfied with the existing arrangements, he was certainly not prepared to defend having granny murderers roaming the streets. The amendments that were introduced give greater protection for the public and are a victory for common sense. Thirdly, the provisions on smacking that were totally unenforceable were removed, although it is our view that unnecessary provisions remain.
Some of the amendments that we proposed were rejected. For example, our proposal that fines should be taken from benefits could have reduced the number of people going to prison for fine default and increased the proportion of fines collected. Another amendment that was rejected was our proposal that a greater range of disposals should be made available to children's hearings. Thirdly, we wanted more honesty in sentencing. We are not surprised that our medicine was too strong for the Administration, but we are pleased that, as a result of vigorous and successful campaigning, the worst excesses of the bill have not been allowed to stain this future justice act.
The bill began as the Deputy First Minister's flagship bill, but he has had to make so many U-turns during its passage that it can now be described as a bill of the Parliament rather than of the Executive. Although the bill does not go as far as we would like and still has grave imperfections, it represents a considerable improvement on what went before.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr Murray Tosh):
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-3730, in the name of Mr Jim Wallace, that the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill be passed.
The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace):
LD
The Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill is a substantial and significant piece of legislation. It is only right that it should have been subject to rigorous and...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
A long list of members wish to take part in the debate, so I ask everyone to keep tightly to the three-minute time allocation.
Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP):
SNP
At stage 1, I expressed my concern that the bill represented a return to the bad old days of the law reform (miscellaneous provisions) (Scotland) bills. The ...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
The minister mentioned some aspects of the bill that are highly satisfactory and for which we commend the Executive. Other aspects, such as civilianisation a...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab):
Lab
I begin by thanking the Justice 2 Committee very much for its hard work. There was not a single issue that the Parliament was concerned about that the commit...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
I will call as many members as I can.
Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP):
SNP
I, too, support the bill, although I do not do so unreservedly. I thank my colleagues on the Justice 2 Committee. As I come to the end of my time in the Parl...
Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome the opportunity to welcome the passing of this important bill. I, too, congratulate the Justice 2 Committee—in particular the convener—on its hard ...
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con):
Con
It is regrettable that there has been insufficient time to give full attention to many of the issues that were before the committee. To give just one example...
George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD):
LD
As the Deputy First Minister said, the bill is a substantial piece of legislation, which will have a major impact in improving Scotland's criminal justice sy...
Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab):
Lab
I join others in congratulating the minister and the committee on the way in which they have tackled the issues in the bill.The Justice 2 Committee's scrutin...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
If Irene McGugan will restrict herself to two minutes, I will be able to give two minutes to Brian Fitzpatrick, who will be the last member to speak.
Irene McGugan (North-East Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I will confine my remarks to the physical punishment of children. The bill is a step in the right direction, but it is a small step. As Richard Simpson sugge...
Brian Fitzpatrick (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab):
Lab
As Johann Lamont mentioned, the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill represents the culmination of a lot of hard work by the subject committee and occasional vis...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
My regrets to the four members whose names remain on my screen, but the clock has beaten us. I call Hugh Henry to wind up the debate.
The Deputy Minister for Justice (Hugh Henry):
Lab
Like the minister, I thank all those who worked so hard on the bill and the organisations and individuals who provided written submissions and gave oral evid...