Chamber
Plenary, 06 Feb 2003
06 Feb 2003 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Organic Farming Targets (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I welcome the debate on how best to support sustainable development in the Scottish organic sector. I make it clear that the Executive does not regard the subject for debate to be whether people are for or against organic farming or whether they are for or against giving organic farming support or succour.
It is regrettable that the debate is on the rather narrower issue of the appropriate or inappropriate use of legislation and statutory powers and targets as the best way of achieving aims that I think are supported by a majority of members all round the chamber, if not unanimously.
I welcome Robin Harper's very constructive letter of last night. I recognise where he is trying to get to. Given the time scale, I sought to respond to his letter as quickly as I could, although I recognise that my response was not the one that he was looking for.
Regrettably—and separately from any commitment to organic development—the Executive does not support the bill. Along with the Rural Development Committee and the huge majority of people who contributed to its deliberations, we support—as everyone has heard—the development of a sustainable organic sector in Scotland. It was interesting, however, to note the voices who told the Rural Development Committee that setting statutory targets was not necessarily the way to promote sustainable development.
The Rural Development Committee did not support the bill's approach of setting statutory targets. There are two fundamental reasons why neither the Executive nor, I suspect, the Rural Development Committee supported that approach. First, we do not believe that it is right to set statutory targets, no matter how loosely they are framed, unless they will have some effect. There seems to be no point in passing legislation through the Parliament if it is just to provide general guidance. If it is not to be more than general guidance, why commit it to statute? Why confuse the purpose of a statutory resource?
Whatever encouragement and support we give to the development of the Scottish organic sector, the rate of conversion of land to organic status will be fundamentally determined by whether farmers believe that they can make a profit from that market. It is simply bad lawmaking to make the Scottish Executive statutorily responsible for targets that are not within its control. The argument applies no matter what level of statutory targets is set.
It is regrettable that the debate is on the rather narrower issue of the appropriate or inappropriate use of legislation and statutory powers and targets as the best way of achieving aims that I think are supported by a majority of members all round the chamber, if not unanimously.
I welcome Robin Harper's very constructive letter of last night. I recognise where he is trying to get to. Given the time scale, I sought to respond to his letter as quickly as I could, although I recognise that my response was not the one that he was looking for.
Regrettably—and separately from any commitment to organic development—the Executive does not support the bill. Along with the Rural Development Committee and the huge majority of people who contributed to its deliberations, we support—as everyone has heard—the development of a sustainable organic sector in Scotland. It was interesting, however, to note the voices who told the Rural Development Committee that setting statutory targets was not necessarily the way to promote sustainable development.
The Rural Development Committee did not support the bill's approach of setting statutory targets. There are two fundamental reasons why neither the Executive nor, I suspect, the Rural Development Committee supported that approach. First, we do not believe that it is right to set statutory targets, no matter how loosely they are framed, unless they will have some effect. There seems to be no point in passing legislation through the Parliament if it is just to provide general guidance. If it is not to be more than general guidance, why commit it to statute? Why confuse the purpose of a statutory resource?
Whatever encouragement and support we give to the development of the Scottish organic sector, the rate of conversion of land to organic status will be fundamentally determined by whether farmers believe that they can make a profit from that market. It is simply bad lawmaking to make the Scottish Executive statutorily responsible for targets that are not within its control. The argument applies no matter what level of statutory targets is set.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr Murray Tosh):
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-3856, in the name of Robin Harper, on the general principles of the Organic Farming Targets (Scotland) Bi...
Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green):
Green
It is with great pleasure that I invite the Parliament to approve the general principles of the Organic Farming Targets (Scotland) Bill. This small but beaut...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab):
Lab
I recognise Robin Harper's work and I am genuinely listening to him. He knows that I have supported what he is doing. It would help if he explained how statu...
Robin Harper:
Green
My speech will cover that.The nature and size of the targets in the bill troubled the Rural Development Committee. I told the committee that I would be prepa...
Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
All of us have seen the courteous letters that were exchanged between Robin Harper and the Minister for Environment and Rural Development. I have difficulty ...
Robin Harper:
Green
Mike Russell virtually took the words out of my mouth. He evinced the same concerns as I have and enunciated the way forward that the Executive could have ac...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
You are over time.
Robin Harper:
Green
I am pleased that, two days ago, the Executive published the "Organic Action Plan" with targets. The uncharitable might view that as an attempt to head off t...
The Minister for Environment and Rural Development (Ross Finnie):
LD
I welcome the debate on how best to support sustainable development in the Scottish organic sector. I make it clear that the Executive does not regard the su...
Karen Gillon (Clydesdale) (Lab):
Lab
I accept the point that the minister makes, but will he accept that another important argument is about affordability? Does he accept that the Executive will...
Ross Finnie:
LD
With all due respect, I am not arguing against that. I wholly support that view. I merely said that it is wrong to suggest that the Executive can set some so...
Michael Russell:
SNP
I want to raise a point with the minister that I raised in my intervention on Robin Harper. It is very difficult for private members to introduce bills. Desp...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
Mr Russell, your question was rather long-winded.
Ross Finnie:
LD
I think that I got the essential point. The fundamental issue is that the Executive works with stakeholders to produce all sorts of plans. Our agricultural s...
Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
First, I congratulate Robin Harper on producing a bill that has already had a considerable impact on the Executive's approach to the organic farming sector, ...
Robin Harper:
Green
Will the member take an intervention?
Bruce Crawford:
SNP
I will do so, but I first want to say something to qualify what I have just said. It would be preferable for targets to be introduced through, for example, a...
Robin Harper:
Green
Does the member accept that the SOPA representative later conceded that he was speaking for himself rather than for SOPA when he said what the member quoted?
Bruce Crawford:
SNP
That is true—I accept that entirely. I do not think that we should not have targets or that there cannot be targets, but the issue is how to achieve them and...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
Please close, Mr Crawford.
Bruce Crawford:
SNP
I will be brief. In Aberdeen, the First Minister told us that, where it was possible and achievable, he would discuss with members introducing members' bills...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
I am afraid that there is no scope for members to overrun their time limits in the way that Bruce Crawford has done. Members should stick closely to the time...
Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
I will preface my speech as the rural affairs spokesman for the Scottish Conservatives with some sentences as convener of the Rural Development Committee. Fi...
Robin Harper:
Green
Does the member accept that conventional farming is not market led and that it exists on subsidies? Why should organic farming not receive similar support?
Alex Fergusson:
Con
I will come to that matter. Mr Harper is well aware that there is a separate organic aid scheme.The evidence that the past chairman of SOPA gave us and lette...
Mr Alasdair Morrison (Western Isles) (Lab):
Lab
We are not debating the merits of organic farming; we are debating the general principles of a bill in Robin Harper's name. I intimate that I will not suppor...
Bruce Crawford:
SNP
Does Alasdair Morrison agree that the action plan does not bring us entirely into line with England and Wales, because in Wales targets have been set for org...
Mr Morrison:
Lab
I find it perplexing that the targets within a bill entitled the Organic Farming Targets (Scotland) Bill would not be statutory or binding, as Robin Harper s...
Robin Harper rose—
Green
Mr Morrison:
Lab
I would like Mr Harper to let me continue. We should consider where the considerable amount of money that is spent supporting farming is deployed. Could that...