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Chamber

Plenary, 27 Mar 2002

27 Mar 2002 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
MSP Numbers
The issue that we are discussing should not be an issue. As even Mr McLetchie must recognise, there is a certain paradox in the fact that the leader of a party that did not want the Parliament, who does not sit on any of the Parliament's committees, is advising the Parliament on how it should reform its structures and committees.

I will give a personal view. I support the motion and the reasoning behind it, because it expresses the view of an overwhelming number of members of the Scottish Parliament, including Conservative members, and the view of civic Scotland. However, it is entirely unsuitable that the Parliament should be discussing an Executive motion on the issue. The issue is a parliamentary one. The Parliament must find ways of asserting its rights—which are separate and distinct from those of the Scottish Executive—to initiate resolutions on matters that go across party lines and express the will of Parliament as a whole.

I commend to the Parliament the support paper that the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body has produced. The paper is not political. It does not enter into discussion of the electoral system. Instead, it lays out—on behalf of the SPCB as members' parliamentary managers—the reasons why a Parliament of 129 members is necessary to do the job. The paper's arguments are firmly grounded in the Parliament's basic principles of accountability, accessibility, diversity and power sharing. A reduction would affect the Parliament's stability in its formative years. It would affect the work of its highly successful committees, the potential of many of the cross-party groups and the amount and quality of the business that would be done. It would also affect the extent of the Parliament's representation of diverse geographic, political and social interests across Scotland.

Unlike the Westminster Parliament, the Scottish Parliament is elected on a fair basis. The Liberal Democrats do not think that the system that is used is the best system; STV, which Dennis Canavan mentioned, would be a better system. However, the system was arrived at consensually and was subsequently supported in a referendum of the Scottish people. That means that the whole of Scotland—including the Highlands, the Borders, the cities, the towns and the different political parties—has a proper voice in the Parliament. That inclusiveness, which was built into the Parliament at the beginning, gives the Parliament great potential to develop innovative ways of connecting with the people and with civic Scotland. The people voted overwhelmingly in the referendum for that sort of Parliament.

Those of us who live in western liberal democracies sometimes take our good fortune for granted. A glance at recent events in Bosnia, Zimbabwe or Afghanistan, to name but a few examples, should persuade us to take our civil and political liberties more seriously.

We have a lot more to do to give ownership of the Parliament to the people, to reform the balance in Parliament between MSPs and the party machines and to develop even better arrangements for participation by the people. We who were elected to the first Scottish Parliament hold our positions in trust for the people of Scotland. However, we are here not as delegates who reflect every populist whim and turn of the national press, but as representatives who exercise our collective and individual judgment on political and public affairs. That role is most effectively exercised through the committees, where evidence is taken, issues are developed and decisions are arrived at—mostly more dispassionately than is the case in the chamber.

As members have said, one of the Parliament's most important functions is to scrutinise the Executive's activities. We cannot do that by being supine supporters of the Executive of the day or by being knee-jerk oppositionists. MSPs must be prepared to take an independent and critical stand. That will not happen if the Parliament is reduced to a rump in which everyone is on the payroll as an official Opposition spokesman, a bag carrier or a cheerleader for one side or the other.

I heard David McLetchie on television last night. He was acting in much the same fashion as he did today—he was glib and condemnatory. His message boiled down to a revised version of the old Tory script that the Parliament, which his party opposed and frustrated for so long, is a waste of space and an unnecessary cost to business and that everyone—except the Conservatives, presumably—is making a hash of everything. Although that sort of petty carping might have done well in Westminster, to where some of Mr McLetchie's colleagues seem desperate to depart, it will not do in the Scottish Parliament. This is a democratically elected Assembly, which, if it is the will of the people, is dismissible at the next election, when the electors can judge us individually and collectively.

Do not write off the Parliament. The Parliament belongs to the people and was brought into existence by their votes. Give us the tools to do the job by keeping the number of MSPs at 129.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-2940, in the name of Patricia Ferguson, on the size of the Scottish Parliament, and an amendment to the m...
The Minister for Parliamentary Business (Patricia Ferguson): Lab
The arrangements for elections to the Scottish Parliament, including the size of the Parliament, are a reserved matter. The effect of those arrangements as t...
Dr Winnie Ewing (Highlands and Islands) (SNP): SNP
I support everything that the minister has said. The reduction in the number of committee members has, on some occasions, made committees totter on the edge ...
Patricia Ferguson: Lab
I thank the member for that. If the committee structure were to be jeopardised in such a way, there would be serious implications for the Executive's legisla...
Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West): *
If we want Scottish parliamentary constituencies to be coterminous with the Westminster constituencies while retaining a proportionality and the Parliament's...
Patricia Ferguson: Lab
I am sure that Mr Canavan will make those points in his submission to the consultation.It would, of course, be possible for any problems that may arise—the k...
David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): Con
Conservative members are proud to stand alone today against the self-serving consensus of Labour, the Liberal Democrats and the SNP that seeks to preserve th...
Rhona Brankin (Midlothian) (Lab): Lab
Will the member give way?
David McLetchie: Con
I will not.We want a leaner, more focused Parliament that concentrates not on the politically correct nonsense that has been our diet on far too many of the ...
Rhona Brankin: Lab
Does Mr McLetchie agree that the number of MSPs that the Conservatives wanted was a big zero?
David McLetchie: Con
I do. However, the fact that we have 19 Conservative MSPs is one of the few redeeming features of the Parliament.
Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green): Green
Will the member give way?
David McLetchie: Con
I will not.We do not need 129 members. That is borne out not only by my experience, but by the experience of a former distinguished member of the Parliament,...
Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): SNP
I do not know whether David McLetchie understands the principles of the Parliament. We have the Executive, the Parliament and the people and there is meant t...
David McLetchie: Con
We have certainly long argued for an alternative programme for the Parliament to the one proposed by the Executive. I agree with Fiona Hyslop on that point.W...
Brian Fitzpatrick (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab) rose— Lab
David McLetchie: Con
Mr Fitzpatrick should listen to this. The Labour members' colleague Mr Martin O'Neill, the Westminster member for Ochil, said on 3 March:"We should look at t...
Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP) rose— SNP
David McLetchie: Con
I will not take an intervention. By reducing the number of ministers and streamlining the committees from 17 to 13, in line with proposals previously made in...
Patricia Ferguson rose— Lab
David McLetchie: Con
I will not take an intervention; I have given way enough already and answered plenty of questions. It might be of interest to members of other parties to not...
Robin Harper: Green
Will the member give way?
David McLetchie: Con
No, thank you. I ask members to listen to the arithmetic. Under our proposals, that would increase to roughly 30,000 people per parliamentary politician. How...
Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP): SNP
It is quite clear that the lean and mean Tories have never left Scotland. Members: "Hear, hear." The SNP has not lodged an amendment to the motion—a rare but...
David McLetchie: Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Fiona Hyslop: SNP
I will give way in a second.The people will not thank the Conservatives for interfering with the Parliament that they voted for in 1999 after reading the lea...
David McLetchie: Con
Is it the policy of the Scottish National Party substantially to reduce the number of ministers in the Scottish Executive?
Fiona Hyslop: SNP
There is a strong case for a review of the operation of the Scottish Executive. All questions of ministerial responsibilities would be up for consideration i...
Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD): LD
The issue that we are discussing should not be an issue. As even Mr McLetchie must recognise, there is a certain paradox in the fact that the leader of a par...
The Deputy Presiding Officer: SNP
We have time for three speeches of four minutes or possibly four speeches of three minutes.