Chamber
Plenary, 27 Mar 2002
27 Mar 2002 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
MSP Numbers
I am sure that Mr Canavan will make those points in his submission to the consultation.
It would, of course, be possible for any problems that may arise—the kind of problems that Mr Canavan has mentioned and other problems that I have mentioned—to be dealt with by a UK-Scottish advisory commission after 2007.
During the passage of the Scotland Bill, the UK Government gave an undertaking that
"if the parliament took the view that its workings would be seriously undermined by a reduction in numbers—then it is open to the parliament to make representations to the Government of the day ... It would be open to the parliament, in the light of experience ... to say to the Government of the day, ‘Look, we think we have got a system which works well and effectively. It is in danger of being disturbed in a very deleterious way if this reduction takes place.' ... The opportunity would not be lost, at some time in the future ... to reopen this question on the initiative of the parliament."—[Official Report, House of Lords, 17 November 1998; Vol 594, c 1195.]
That is what we are doing.
It would be wrong to suggest that the Parliament has got everything right, but I believe that it will take more than the nearly three short years that have passed to judge it properly. In the meantime, we need stability to allow us to continue to move forward.
The Executive believes that there are compelling arguments for retaining the Parliament at its current size. The UK Government has made it clear that it is prepared to listen. I hope that during this debate the Parliament will set out the case as strongly and as clearly as it can. I hope and believe that the UK Government can be persuaded to accept those arguments and to table appropriate amendments to the Scotland Act 1998 in due course.
I move,
That the Parliament notes Her Majesty's Government's consultation paper on the size of the Scottish Parliament; acknowledges the positive progress made by the Parliament and its committees, and considers that the number of elected representatives should remain at 129.
It would, of course, be possible for any problems that may arise—the kind of problems that Mr Canavan has mentioned and other problems that I have mentioned—to be dealt with by a UK-Scottish advisory commission after 2007.
During the passage of the Scotland Bill, the UK Government gave an undertaking that
"if the parliament took the view that its workings would be seriously undermined by a reduction in numbers—then it is open to the parliament to make representations to the Government of the day ... It would be open to the parliament, in the light of experience ... to say to the Government of the day, ‘Look, we think we have got a system which works well and effectively. It is in danger of being disturbed in a very deleterious way if this reduction takes place.' ... The opportunity would not be lost, at some time in the future ... to reopen this question on the initiative of the parliament."—[Official Report, House of Lords, 17 November 1998; Vol 594, c 1195.]
That is what we are doing.
It would be wrong to suggest that the Parliament has got everything right, but I believe that it will take more than the nearly three short years that have passed to judge it properly. In the meantime, we need stability to allow us to continue to move forward.
The Executive believes that there are compelling arguments for retaining the Parliament at its current size. The UK Government has made it clear that it is prepared to listen. I hope that during this debate the Parliament will set out the case as strongly and as clearly as it can. I hope and believe that the UK Government can be persuaded to accept those arguments and to table appropriate amendments to the Scotland Act 1998 in due course.
I move,
That the Parliament notes Her Majesty's Government's consultation paper on the size of the Scottish Parliament; acknowledges the positive progress made by the Parliament and its committees, and considers that the number of elected representatives should remain at 129.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-2940, in the name of Patricia Ferguson, on the size of the Scottish Parliament, and an amendment to the m...
The Minister for Parliamentary Business (Patricia Ferguson):
Lab
The arrangements for elections to the Scottish Parliament, including the size of the Parliament, are a reserved matter. The effect of those arrangements as t...
Dr Winnie Ewing (Highlands and Islands) (SNP):
SNP
I support everything that the minister has said. The reduction in the number of committee members has, on some occasions, made committees totter on the edge ...
Patricia Ferguson:
Lab
I thank the member for that. If the committee structure were to be jeopardised in such a way, there would be serious implications for the Executive's legisla...
Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West):
*
If we want Scottish parliamentary constituencies to be coterminous with the Westminster constituencies while retaining a proportionality and the Parliament's...
Patricia Ferguson:
Lab
I am sure that Mr Canavan will make those points in his submission to the consultation.It would, of course, be possible for any problems that may arise—the k...
David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con):
Con
Conservative members are proud to stand alone today against the self-serving consensus of Labour, the Liberal Democrats and the SNP that seeks to preserve th...
Rhona Brankin (Midlothian) (Lab):
Lab
Will the member give way?
David McLetchie:
Con
I will not.We want a leaner, more focused Parliament that concentrates not on the politically correct nonsense that has been our diet on far too many of the ...
Rhona Brankin:
Lab
Does Mr McLetchie agree that the number of MSPs that the Conservatives wanted was a big zero?
David McLetchie:
Con
I do. However, the fact that we have 19 Conservative MSPs is one of the few redeeming features of the Parliament.
Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green):
Green
Will the member give way?
David McLetchie:
Con
I will not.We do not need 129 members. That is borne out not only by my experience, but by the experience of a former distinguished member of the Parliament,...
Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP):
SNP
I do not know whether David McLetchie understands the principles of the Parliament. We have the Executive, the Parliament and the people and there is meant t...
David McLetchie:
Con
We have certainly long argued for an alternative programme for the Parliament to the one proposed by the Executive. I agree with Fiona Hyslop on that point.W...
Brian Fitzpatrick (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab) rose—
Lab
David McLetchie:
Con
Mr Fitzpatrick should listen to this. The Labour members' colleague Mr Martin O'Neill, the Westminster member for Ochil, said on 3 March:"We should look at t...
Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP) rose—
SNP
David McLetchie:
Con
I will not take an intervention. By reducing the number of ministers and streamlining the committees from 17 to 13, in line with proposals previously made in...
Patricia Ferguson rose—
Lab
David McLetchie:
Con
I will not take an intervention; I have given way enough already and answered plenty of questions. It might be of interest to members of other parties to not...
Robin Harper:
Green
Will the member give way?
David McLetchie:
Con
No, thank you. I ask members to listen to the arithmetic. Under our proposals, that would increase to roughly 30,000 people per parliamentary politician. How...
Fiona Hyslop (Lothians) (SNP):
SNP
It is quite clear that the lean and mean Tories have never left Scotland. Members: "Hear, hear." The SNP has not lodged an amendment to the motion—a rare but...
David McLetchie:
Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
I will give way in a second.The people will not thank the Conservatives for interfering with the Parliament that they voted for in 1999 after reading the lea...
David McLetchie:
Con
Is it the policy of the Scottish National Party substantially to reduce the number of ministers in the Scottish Executive?
Fiona Hyslop:
SNP
There is a strong case for a review of the operation of the Scottish Executive. All questions of ministerial responsibilities would be up for consideration i...
Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD):
LD
The issue that we are discussing should not be an issue. As even Mr McLetchie must recognise, there is a certain paradox in the fact that the leader of a par...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
We have time for three speeches of four minutes or possibly four speeches of three minutes.