Chamber
Plenary, 21 Mar 2002
21 Mar 2002 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Prison Estates Review
Pauline McNeill asks how we can justify such a wide difference in costs. The vastness of the difference is one of the reasons for the delay. We wanted to ensure that the figures stood up to robust analysis. I invite Pauline McNeill to read the PricewaterhouseCoopers report, which gives some of the reasons for the difference.
In getting public sector comparators for the costings, we accepted that the proposal would involve a modern prison in the public sector with some of the operational advantages that that gives. A fair comparison was made between the public sector and the private sector in terms of buildings. The various documents set out the differences in operational costs, bit by bit. Even if a 20 per cent reduction in operating costs were made—which, as the report says, would lead to significant staff reductions in the public sector—there would still be a considerable difference between the public and private sector options. It is not intended that there should be any transfer of staff from the public sector to the private sector. I have given the undertaking and confirmed the SPS's undertaking that no one in the state sector will be made compulsorily redundant or receive any reduction in cash wages.
Kilmarnock prison delivers a range of rehabilitation programmes. Accreditation is given not only for a programme, but for its delivery on a specific site. When a prison opens, it does not have the track record immediately to get accreditation, but accreditation is now coming through for programmes at Kilmarnock. The SPS management monitors the delivery of those programmes in Kilmarnock and there is close scrutiny of what is being delivered. I emphasise the fact that our commitment to rehabilitation will be a key feature of the contracts that will be let. It is important that, in any prison system—whether in the public or private sector—we stress the importance of work that leads to rehabilitation of offenders.
In getting public sector comparators for the costings, we accepted that the proposal would involve a modern prison in the public sector with some of the operational advantages that that gives. A fair comparison was made between the public sector and the private sector in terms of buildings. The various documents set out the differences in operational costs, bit by bit. Even if a 20 per cent reduction in operating costs were made—which, as the report says, would lead to significant staff reductions in the public sector—there would still be a considerable difference between the public and private sector options. It is not intended that there should be any transfer of staff from the public sector to the private sector. I have given the undertaking and confirmed the SPS's undertaking that no one in the state sector will be made compulsorily redundant or receive any reduction in cash wages.
Kilmarnock prison delivers a range of rehabilitation programmes. Accreditation is given not only for a programme, but for its delivery on a specific site. When a prison opens, it does not have the track record immediately to get accreditation, but accreditation is now coming through for programmes at Kilmarnock. The SPS management monitors the delivery of those programmes in Kilmarnock and there is close scrutiny of what is being delivered. I emphasise the fact that our commitment to rehabilitation will be a key feature of the contracts that will be let. It is important that, in any prison system—whether in the public or private sector—we stress the importance of work that leads to rehabilitation of offenders.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr Murray Tosh):
Con
The next item of business is a statement by Mr Jim Wallace on the prison estates review. The minister will take questions at the end of his statement, so the...
The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace):
LD
I would like to outline the Executive's proposals for the future of the prison estate in Scotland, which are being published today for consultation.Prisons a...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
The minister will now take questions on the issues that have been raised in his statement. We can be reasonably flexible about time this morning. I have a lo...
Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP):
SNP
So much for the Liberal Democrat manifesto before the 1999 Scottish Parliament election and new Labour's promises before the 1997 general election.It is an a...
Mr Wallace:
LD
I did not brief anyone on the proposals and no authorised briefing took place—I gave specific instructions that no briefing should take place. It was not roc...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
I will allow questions to run beyond the timetabled 30 minutes because of the extensive list of members who want to ask questions. I emphasise that members s...
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con):
Con
Is the Deputy First Minister aware that his commitment to private prisons is similar to the conversion on the road to Damascus? Has he forgotten that when th...
Mr Wallace:
LD
James Douglas-Hamilton has used the 15 months to undertake some worthwhile research to find out how various people voted in 1992. I do not deny that the view...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab):
Lab
Although I acknowledge the poor state of the prison estate and the Executive's desire to change it, how can the Minister for Justice expect Parliament to acc...
Mr Wallace:
LD
Pauline McNeill asks how we can justify such a wide difference in costs. The vastness of the difference is one of the reasons for the delay. We wanted to ens...
George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD):
LD
It is clear that the Scottish Executive and the Minister for Justice have spent considerable time investigating the differences between the two models before...
Mr Wallace:
LD
George Lyon correctly points out that the difference in cost is such that, if we were to forgo that £700 million, we would have fewer resources to spend on t...
Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
The minister advised that about 670 staff will be affected by the reduction in size of Barlinnie and the closure of Low Moss and Peterhead but that there wil...
Mr Wallace:
LD
I confirm again that there will be no compulsory redundancies among those 670 staff. However, we are talking about something that will happen over three or f...
Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP):
SNP
Can we have a guarantee on that issue?
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
Order.
Mr Swinney:
SNP
Will there be different rates of pay?
Mr Wallace:
LD
I cannot say that there will be the same rates of pay because, as members know, there are different rates of pay in the private sector. Interruption.
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
Order. If Mr Swinney wants to ask a question, he can, like other members, press his button.
Mr Wallace:
LD
We require of any private prison contract that those in custody are securely maintained and that numerous programmes, including education, are delivered. Tho...
Margaret Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab):
Lab
Will there be an opportunity to extend Kilmarnock prison? If so, will that provide an opportunity to renegotiate the current contract, thereby addressing the...
Mr Wallace:
LD
I recall that Margaret Jamieson accompanied me on my visit to Kilmarnock prison. On the contract, lessons have been learned and those lessons will be reflect...
Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
I generally welcome the review. I regret the time that it has taken to bring it to Parliament, although I perhaps understand the reasons for that. Given the ...
Mr Wallace:
LD
I will take Phil Gallie's points in turn. Projections of numbers are not accurate predictions or precise science. The further one goes more than two or three...
Henry McLeish (Central Fife) (Lab):
Lab
The statement is important and I sympathise with the Minister for Justice as he tackles the problems, some of which have been neglected for many years. The s...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
I invite no one to take that indulgence as an example to be followed.
Mr Wallace:
LD
I thank Henry McLeish for his questions and for taking a keen interest as First Minister in the work that was being done on the prison estates review.As I in...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
I am beginning to get pleading notes and there are a lot of members on the list of those who wish to speak. I ask members to make their questions snappy.
Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD):
LD
I will press the minister on the question of alternatives to custody. Will he assure us that adequate resources will be made available for providing services...
Mr Wallace:
LD
I give Donald Gorrie the assurance that he seeks. We set considerable store by the development and resourcing of alternatives to custody. The fact that we wi...