Chamber
Plenary, 21 Mar 2002
21 Mar 2002 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Prison Estates Review
So much for the Liberal Democrat manifesto before the 1999 Scottish Parliament election and new Labour's promises before the 1997 general election.
It is an amazing coincidence that nearly everything that the minister said in his statement appears to have been in the public domain since last Friday, when every journalist in Scotland who is interested in the matter tried to contact members through their pagers and mobiles. One can assume only that there was a great deal of unofficial briefing.
The minister has had the review since December 2000. Will he explain why—although the review took 13 months from when it landed on his desk to come before Parliament—he is prepared to allow only a 12-week consultation period? That is utterly ludicrous.
Will the minister undertake to ensure that the veil of commercial confidentiality is removed from Kilmarnock prison so that we can all compare the public and the private sector provision of prisons? At present, we are not permitted to know, for example, the number of prison officers at Kilmarnock, the conditions in the medical centre, the extent of staff bullying and the extent of staff turnover. Such information is necessary to establish a real comparison between the private and the public sectors. Does not the minister realise that Kilmarnock—in terms of cost and of the prison regime—is nothing like an ideal model for the future of the prison service in Scotland?
How on earth does the minister justify the closure of Peterhead prison? The prison system appears to be one in which the reward for success is closure. Dungavel prison, which was as close to being drug-free as a prison can be, was closed. Now, Peterhead, which has an internationally renowned sex offenders unit, will be closed. According to Clive Fairweather, that closure will set back the progress of the sex offenders treatment programme by three years. Where will the offenders in that unit go? I presume that the new recipient community will not be too happy about it.
Conditions in Scotland's prisons need radical improvement. Does the minister realise that most people in Scotland believe that the proposals are not the way in which to deliver that improvement?
It is an amazing coincidence that nearly everything that the minister said in his statement appears to have been in the public domain since last Friday, when every journalist in Scotland who is interested in the matter tried to contact members through their pagers and mobiles. One can assume only that there was a great deal of unofficial briefing.
The minister has had the review since December 2000. Will he explain why—although the review took 13 months from when it landed on his desk to come before Parliament—he is prepared to allow only a 12-week consultation period? That is utterly ludicrous.
Will the minister undertake to ensure that the veil of commercial confidentiality is removed from Kilmarnock prison so that we can all compare the public and the private sector provision of prisons? At present, we are not permitted to know, for example, the number of prison officers at Kilmarnock, the conditions in the medical centre, the extent of staff bullying and the extent of staff turnover. Such information is necessary to establish a real comparison between the private and the public sectors. Does not the minister realise that Kilmarnock—in terms of cost and of the prison regime—is nothing like an ideal model for the future of the prison service in Scotland?
How on earth does the minister justify the closure of Peterhead prison? The prison system appears to be one in which the reward for success is closure. Dungavel prison, which was as close to being drug-free as a prison can be, was closed. Now, Peterhead, which has an internationally renowned sex offenders unit, will be closed. According to Clive Fairweather, that closure will set back the progress of the sex offenders treatment programme by three years. Where will the offenders in that unit go? I presume that the new recipient community will not be too happy about it.
Conditions in Scotland's prisons need radical improvement. Does the minister realise that most people in Scotland believe that the proposals are not the way in which to deliver that improvement?
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr Murray Tosh):
Con
The next item of business is a statement by Mr Jim Wallace on the prison estates review. The minister will take questions at the end of his statement, so the...
The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace):
LD
I would like to outline the Executive's proposals for the future of the prison estate in Scotland, which are being published today for consultation.Prisons a...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
The minister will now take questions on the issues that have been raised in his statement. We can be reasonably flexible about time this morning. I have a lo...
Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP):
SNP
So much for the Liberal Democrat manifesto before the 1999 Scottish Parliament election and new Labour's promises before the 1997 general election.It is an a...
Mr Wallace:
LD
I did not brief anyone on the proposals and no authorised briefing took place—I gave specific instructions that no briefing should take place. It was not roc...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
I will allow questions to run beyond the timetabled 30 minutes because of the extensive list of members who want to ask questions. I emphasise that members s...
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con):
Con
Is the Deputy First Minister aware that his commitment to private prisons is similar to the conversion on the road to Damascus? Has he forgotten that when th...
Mr Wallace:
LD
James Douglas-Hamilton has used the 15 months to undertake some worthwhile research to find out how various people voted in 1992. I do not deny that the view...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab):
Lab
Although I acknowledge the poor state of the prison estate and the Executive's desire to change it, how can the Minister for Justice expect Parliament to acc...
Mr Wallace:
LD
Pauline McNeill asks how we can justify such a wide difference in costs. The vastness of the difference is one of the reasons for the delay. We wanted to ens...
George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD):
LD
It is clear that the Scottish Executive and the Minister for Justice have spent considerable time investigating the differences between the two models before...
Mr Wallace:
LD
George Lyon correctly points out that the difference in cost is such that, if we were to forgo that £700 million, we would have fewer resources to spend on t...
Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
The minister advised that about 670 staff will be affected by the reduction in size of Barlinnie and the closure of Low Moss and Peterhead but that there wil...
Mr Wallace:
LD
I confirm again that there will be no compulsory redundancies among those 670 staff. However, we are talking about something that will happen over three or f...
Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP):
SNP
Can we have a guarantee on that issue?
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
Order.
Mr Swinney:
SNP
Will there be different rates of pay?
Mr Wallace:
LD
I cannot say that there will be the same rates of pay because, as members know, there are different rates of pay in the private sector. Interruption.
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
Order. If Mr Swinney wants to ask a question, he can, like other members, press his button.
Mr Wallace:
LD
We require of any private prison contract that those in custody are securely maintained and that numerous programmes, including education, are delivered. Tho...
Margaret Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab):
Lab
Will there be an opportunity to extend Kilmarnock prison? If so, will that provide an opportunity to renegotiate the current contract, thereby addressing the...
Mr Wallace:
LD
I recall that Margaret Jamieson accompanied me on my visit to Kilmarnock prison. On the contract, lessons have been learned and those lessons will be reflect...
Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
I generally welcome the review. I regret the time that it has taken to bring it to Parliament, although I perhaps understand the reasons for that. Given the ...
Mr Wallace:
LD
I will take Phil Gallie's points in turn. Projections of numbers are not accurate predictions or precise science. The further one goes more than two or three...
Henry McLeish (Central Fife) (Lab):
Lab
The statement is important and I sympathise with the Minister for Justice as he tackles the problems, some of which have been neglected for many years. The s...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
I invite no one to take that indulgence as an example to be followed.
Mr Wallace:
LD
I thank Henry McLeish for his questions and for taking a keen interest as First Minister in the work that was being done on the prison estates review.As I in...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
I am beginning to get pleading notes and there are a lot of members on the list of those who wish to speak. I ask members to make their questions snappy.
Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD):
LD
I will press the minister on the question of alternatives to custody. Will he assure us that adequate resources will be made available for providing services...
Mr Wallace:
LD
I give Donald Gorrie the assurance that he seeks. We set considerable store by the development and resourcing of alternatives to custody. The fact that we wi...