Chamber
Plenary, 28 Feb 2002
28 Feb 2002 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Education (Disability Strategies and Pupils' Records) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I also shall be brief. There is overwhelming unanimity in the chamber about the bill. We are now into discussions about the detail of how the bill will proceed through stages 2 and 3.
I am glad to have the support of Frank McAveety on the issue of Sewel motions. It was quite a relief to have his support, although that was an unusual event. The bill is an example of why Sewel motions should be used sparingly, although the subject matter could have been dealt with through the use of a Sewel motion. By introducing the bill, not only has the Executive given the chamber an opportunity to debate the issues and members an opportunity to lodge amendments, but it has given civic Scotland and individuals an opportunity to make representations and to be heard. That could not have happened if the matter had been dealt with through the use of a Sewel motion. The bill is a good example of legislation that should go through the parliamentary process, although that may take time and effort. The Executive should not deal with such matters by giving away our right to legislate.
Three key issues in the bill have clearly emerged during the debate: demand; will and intention to meet that demand; and resources to underpin the ability to meet that demand. I commend the minister on her speech, much of which I agree with. However, I believe that she underestimates the demand that will exist. By definition, parents of children who have special educational needs are usually very involved in their children's education and acutely aware of the difficulties that their children have.
I suspect that the bill, which will be warmly welcomed, will also mean that parents have very high expectations from early on. Although it will be necessary to phase in the support that is available, let us not alienate parents by doing so in a way that appears to be penny-pinching. I am glad that the detail of the finance indicates that money that is additional to the £9 million is available. There will be significant financial demands on the public purse for schools. Mr Jenkins has indicated some of those.
A considerable amount of work is required to make a building or buildings suitable once a strategy has been produced. I mentioned a lift in a primary school that I know. Many other schools—perhaps those that have old buildings—will require considerable adaptation. I hope that when the deputy minister responds, he will take on board the fact that demand will be considerable.
Teachers and those who run the schools must have the will to make sure that the bill works. By and large, that will is there. The minister was absolutely right to say that mainstreaming cannot be imposed on schools. I was a member of the Education, Culture and Sport Committee that undertook a report on special educational needs. Mainstreaming is a hope, an encouragement and a way in which we want people to look at education. However, it cannot be a demand, because children are all different and schools are all different.
Teachers must be helped to understand how mainstreaming works. For some children it will never work; for others it will work very well. We must proselytise for the bill within schools, to persuade teachers to take the chances and make the extra effort that will enable children to go into schools, to mainstream and to have the facilities in those schools that they need.
If we can understand the demand, if we can recognise the need to create the will within schools and if we can provide the resources, the bill will make a huge difference over a period of time.
Unfortunately, the issue of pupil records represents another example of bad drafting somewhere else producing a problem that requires resolution by the Parliament. That has become something of a hobby-horse of mine, and the deputy minister has suffered as a result of that in committee. We must look seriously at drafting. The fact that we can legislate does not mean that we have to do so. When we legislate, we must do it properly.
In the primary legislation that we pass and, increasingly, in Scottish statutory instruments, problems are becoming legion. The case of a statutory instrument that the Education, Culture and Sport Committee recently considered has become almost farcical. We must examine drafting, which is not a party-political issue, but one of good governance. We must have the ability to draft bills properly.
The bill represents an ideal opportunity for the Parliament and its committees—Kate Maclean referred to her committee—to work together for the good of people in Scotland who have a real need. That has been the nature of the debate and I am sure that it will be the nature of the stage 2 proceedings. I ask the Executive to keep it that way. Let us be constructive about the bill and let us not stand on our dignity on the drafting of amendments. I support the bill.
I am glad to have the support of Frank McAveety on the issue of Sewel motions. It was quite a relief to have his support, although that was an unusual event. The bill is an example of why Sewel motions should be used sparingly, although the subject matter could have been dealt with through the use of a Sewel motion. By introducing the bill, not only has the Executive given the chamber an opportunity to debate the issues and members an opportunity to lodge amendments, but it has given civic Scotland and individuals an opportunity to make representations and to be heard. That could not have happened if the matter had been dealt with through the use of a Sewel motion. The bill is a good example of legislation that should go through the parliamentary process, although that may take time and effort. The Executive should not deal with such matters by giving away our right to legislate.
Three key issues in the bill have clearly emerged during the debate: demand; will and intention to meet that demand; and resources to underpin the ability to meet that demand. I commend the minister on her speech, much of which I agree with. However, I believe that she underestimates the demand that will exist. By definition, parents of children who have special educational needs are usually very involved in their children's education and acutely aware of the difficulties that their children have.
I suspect that the bill, which will be warmly welcomed, will also mean that parents have very high expectations from early on. Although it will be necessary to phase in the support that is available, let us not alienate parents by doing so in a way that appears to be penny-pinching. I am glad that the detail of the finance indicates that money that is additional to the £9 million is available. There will be significant financial demands on the public purse for schools. Mr Jenkins has indicated some of those.
A considerable amount of work is required to make a building or buildings suitable once a strategy has been produced. I mentioned a lift in a primary school that I know. Many other schools—perhaps those that have old buildings—will require considerable adaptation. I hope that when the deputy minister responds, he will take on board the fact that demand will be considerable.
Teachers and those who run the schools must have the will to make sure that the bill works. By and large, that will is there. The minister was absolutely right to say that mainstreaming cannot be imposed on schools. I was a member of the Education, Culture and Sport Committee that undertook a report on special educational needs. Mainstreaming is a hope, an encouragement and a way in which we want people to look at education. However, it cannot be a demand, because children are all different and schools are all different.
Teachers must be helped to understand how mainstreaming works. For some children it will never work; for others it will work very well. We must proselytise for the bill within schools, to persuade teachers to take the chances and make the extra effort that will enable children to go into schools, to mainstream and to have the facilities in those schools that they need.
If we can understand the demand, if we can recognise the need to create the will within schools and if we can provide the resources, the bill will make a huge difference over a period of time.
Unfortunately, the issue of pupil records represents another example of bad drafting somewhere else producing a problem that requires resolution by the Parliament. That has become something of a hobby-horse of mine, and the deputy minister has suffered as a result of that in committee. We must look seriously at drafting. The fact that we can legislate does not mean that we have to do so. When we legislate, we must do it properly.
In the primary legislation that we pass and, increasingly, in Scottish statutory instruments, problems are becoming legion. The case of a statutory instrument that the Education, Culture and Sport Committee recently considered has become almost farcical. We must examine drafting, which is not a party-political issue, but one of good governance. We must have the ability to draft bills properly.
The bill represents an ideal opportunity for the Parliament and its committees—Kate Maclean referred to her committee—to work together for the good of people in Scotland who have a real need. That has been the nature of the debate and I am sure that it will be the nature of the stage 2 proceedings. I ask the Executive to keep it that way. Let us be constructive about the bill and let us not stand on our dignity on the drafting of amendments. I support the bill.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr Murray Tosh):
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-2563, in the name of Cathy Jamieson, on the general principles of the Education (Disability Strategies an...
The Minister for Education and Young People (Cathy Jamieson):
Lab
I am glad to uphold that precedent with your permission, Presiding Officer. I would not otherwise have dared to say that I am glad to see pupils from Belmont...
Irene McGugan (North-East Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
The SNP warmly welcomes the use of primary legislation to introduce education accessibility strategies, and fully supports the bill's general principles. How...
Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
On behalf of the Conservatives, I am pleased to welcome the bill. We welcome it because it aims to improve access to school education for pupils who have dis...
Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
On pupils' records, which form a minor part of the bill, there are two key issues. One issue is confidentiality, which is important, and the other issue is t...
Mr Monteith:
Con
Certainly. I have no difficulty in saying that the authority in question was Fife Council. I do not want to go into more detail, because the matter is curren...
Ian Jenkins (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD):
LD
The motion is easy to support. I cannot imagine that anyone would disagree with the bill's general principles, which seek to ensure that responsible authorit...
Michael Russell:
SNP
Mr Jenkins made a valid point about small rural schools. Some authorities might regard those rural schools as too expensive to continue in operation if the a...
Ian Jenkins:
LD
I agree.In the long term, we do ourselves no favours if we gloss over those genuine concerns because they relate to complicated and sensitive issues that rel...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab):
Lab
My colleagues in the Labour party and I have long held the belief that education is the key to unlocking opportunity in later life. It is not the privilege o...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
I advise members that the prospect is that we may require to bring forward decision time and members' business today. I say that also for the benefit of busi...
Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I will continue the consensus by warmly welcoming the bill. However, it is important that what the bill can achieve is kept in context.As Jackie Baillie said...
Mr Kenneth Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome the bill. Although, considered in isolation, it addresses only one aspect of educational need, it should be seen as one plank in a raft of measures...
Kate Maclean (Dundee West) (Lab):
Lab
The Equal Opportunities Committee considered the bill and contributed to the Education, Culture and Sport Committee's stage 1 report. In an open letter to th...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
SNP
Before we go on to wrap-up speeches, I inform members that I anticipate that the debate will finish around 4.40 or 4.45. With the agreement of members, I wil...
Mr Frank McAveety (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab):
Lab
I am filling in for Karen Gillon at short notice, so I ask members to bear with me.Colleagues from the committee have already identified some of the key issu...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
I reiterate Brian Monteith's comment that the Scottish Conservatives welcome the bill.I will make two brief points on disability strategies, both of which re...
Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I also shall be brief. There is overwhelming unanimity in the chamber about the bill. We are now into discussions about the detail of how the bill will proce...
The Deputy Minister for Education and Young People (Nicol Stephen):
LD
I would like to continue the constructive tone. I agree with Michael Russell's final remarks about the spirit in which the bill has been debated so far. We h...
Dr Winnie Ewing (Highlands and Islands) (SNP):
SNP
Will the minister give way?
Nicol Stephen:
LD
I shall, but let me just finish.Schools should take reasonable steps to ensure that such children can participate fully in school trips. For example, schools...
Dr Ewing:
SNP
Should accessibility strategies always include deaf children who do not attend schools for the deaf?
Nicol Stephen:
LD
Yes, of course. To answer Dr Ewing's question, let me say that I was pleased that contributors to the debate—especially Jackie Baillie—stressed that the bill...
Michael Russell:
SNP
The minister has highlighted the link between the bill and the record of needs legislation, of which he has acknowledged that radical reform is needed. Can h...
Nicol Stephen:
LD
The short answer is no. I cannot give such an indication today. Announcements on legislative proposals are made as part of the full legislative programme tha...
Irene McGugan:
SNP
Will the minister take an intervention?
Nicol Stephen:
LD
I would be happy to take one final intervention.
Irene McGugan:
SNP
I very much appreciate the minister's giving way. Will he clarify what he said a moment ago about the avenues for redress that are available under different ...
Nicol Stephen:
LD
That is an issue that we debate often. All of us are anxious to ensure that there is as much consistency as possible between the disability legislation and t...