Chamber
Plenary, 28 Feb 2002
28 Feb 2002 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Education (Disability Strategies and Pupils' Records) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I am filling in for Karen Gillon at short notice, so I ask members to bear with me.
Colleagues from the committee have already identified some of the key issues that we want the ministerial team to address. We welcome the development of legislation that ties up an uneven aspect of the Disability Discrimination Act 1995. We also acknowledge that pupil records issues need to be addressed. The bill combines two issues that have been missed for a considerable time.
As Irene McGugan said, we would like responses on key issues that the committee identified. We specifically want responses on how we integrate accessibility with the general issue of planning and developing buildings in the first place. That is worth exploring.
The second big concern is how effective the complaints procedure will be, because there might be circumstances in which the parents also suffer from the disability of the children. Again, we should maximise the opportunity for information to be explained and for parents to be involved.
Michael Matheson identified the grey area of associated services and the links that need to be made within social work, health and education services to identify those that are exempt at present and how to bring them broadly within the framework.
There is still concern in the committee about how we proactively disseminate information. Further explanation for stage 2 would be welcome and would satisfy committee members and those who have written to us and to other MSPs about that issue. Children in Scotland has identified other issues that are worth exploring.
The process is continuing. We are having a debate about what we think are accessibility strategies. Such strategies are different from what they would have been two, three or 10 years ago and will be different three, five or 10 years from now. There is a lot of space for identifying how language is used within the framework of the legislation to make it more flexible. Jackie Baillie has had experience in the field and raised the question of how we continue to monitor, review and act on that. That is welcome.
I do not totally agree with Mike Russell and that might come as a shock to him, but we are on much safer ground here—at least this is not a Sewel motion, which we have been animated about in the chamber before. I welcome the fact that we sought legislation because, although the matter could have been addressed by a Sewel motion, it is more appropriately addressed by a bill, given the impact on devolved matters.
We have to have the resources to support the bill, but we also have to change mindsets, which we are continuing to challenge. We can have a spanking new investment, but if we have not consulted the users who experience it, we will not get the maximum benefit from it. We have to ensure that we engage in consultation with those who experience the difficulties—primarily young people.
Kate Maclean made positive contributions. She was as self-effacing as ever, but her contributions were critical and we have to be aware of the issues that matter.
I welcome the fact that Scottish education now has a regulatory power regarding pupil records, because that was missed before. If we pass the bill, people will have a more effective right to access to school records.
I hope that the ministers will take up the broad issues that I have raised and address them at stage 2.
Colleagues from the committee have already identified some of the key issues that we want the ministerial team to address. We welcome the development of legislation that ties up an uneven aspect of the Disability Discrimination Act 1995. We also acknowledge that pupil records issues need to be addressed. The bill combines two issues that have been missed for a considerable time.
As Irene McGugan said, we would like responses on key issues that the committee identified. We specifically want responses on how we integrate accessibility with the general issue of planning and developing buildings in the first place. That is worth exploring.
The second big concern is how effective the complaints procedure will be, because there might be circumstances in which the parents also suffer from the disability of the children. Again, we should maximise the opportunity for information to be explained and for parents to be involved.
Michael Matheson identified the grey area of associated services and the links that need to be made within social work, health and education services to identify those that are exempt at present and how to bring them broadly within the framework.
There is still concern in the committee about how we proactively disseminate information. Further explanation for stage 2 would be welcome and would satisfy committee members and those who have written to us and to other MSPs about that issue. Children in Scotland has identified other issues that are worth exploring.
The process is continuing. We are having a debate about what we think are accessibility strategies. Such strategies are different from what they would have been two, three or 10 years ago and will be different three, five or 10 years from now. There is a lot of space for identifying how language is used within the framework of the legislation to make it more flexible. Jackie Baillie has had experience in the field and raised the question of how we continue to monitor, review and act on that. That is welcome.
I do not totally agree with Mike Russell and that might come as a shock to him, but we are on much safer ground here—at least this is not a Sewel motion, which we have been animated about in the chamber before. I welcome the fact that we sought legislation because, although the matter could have been addressed by a Sewel motion, it is more appropriately addressed by a bill, given the impact on devolved matters.
We have to have the resources to support the bill, but we also have to change mindsets, which we are continuing to challenge. We can have a spanking new investment, but if we have not consulted the users who experience it, we will not get the maximum benefit from it. We have to ensure that we engage in consultation with those who experience the difficulties—primarily young people.
Kate Maclean made positive contributions. She was as self-effacing as ever, but her contributions were critical and we have to be aware of the issues that matter.
I welcome the fact that Scottish education now has a regulatory power regarding pupil records, because that was missed before. If we pass the bill, people will have a more effective right to access to school records.
I hope that the ministers will take up the broad issues that I have raised and address them at stage 2.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr Murray Tosh):
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-2563, in the name of Cathy Jamieson, on the general principles of the Education (Disability Strategies an...
The Minister for Education and Young People (Cathy Jamieson):
Lab
I am glad to uphold that precedent with your permission, Presiding Officer. I would not otherwise have dared to say that I am glad to see pupils from Belmont...
Irene McGugan (North-East Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
The SNP warmly welcomes the use of primary legislation to introduce education accessibility strategies, and fully supports the bill's general principles. How...
Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
On behalf of the Conservatives, I am pleased to welcome the bill. We welcome it because it aims to improve access to school education for pupils who have dis...
Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
On pupils' records, which form a minor part of the bill, there are two key issues. One issue is confidentiality, which is important, and the other issue is t...
Mr Monteith:
Con
Certainly. I have no difficulty in saying that the authority in question was Fife Council. I do not want to go into more detail, because the matter is curren...
Ian Jenkins (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD):
LD
The motion is easy to support. I cannot imagine that anyone would disagree with the bill's general principles, which seek to ensure that responsible authorit...
Michael Russell:
SNP
Mr Jenkins made a valid point about small rural schools. Some authorities might regard those rural schools as too expensive to continue in operation if the a...
Ian Jenkins:
LD
I agree.In the long term, we do ourselves no favours if we gloss over those genuine concerns because they relate to complicated and sensitive issues that rel...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab):
Lab
My colleagues in the Labour party and I have long held the belief that education is the key to unlocking opportunity in later life. It is not the privilege o...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
I advise members that the prospect is that we may require to bring forward decision time and members' business today. I say that also for the benefit of busi...
Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I will continue the consensus by warmly welcoming the bill. However, it is important that what the bill can achieve is kept in context.As Jackie Baillie said...
Mr Kenneth Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome the bill. Although, considered in isolation, it addresses only one aspect of educational need, it should be seen as one plank in a raft of measures...
Kate Maclean (Dundee West) (Lab):
Lab
The Equal Opportunities Committee considered the bill and contributed to the Education, Culture and Sport Committee's stage 1 report. In an open letter to th...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
SNP
Before we go on to wrap-up speeches, I inform members that I anticipate that the debate will finish around 4.40 or 4.45. With the agreement of members, I wil...
Mr Frank McAveety (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab):
Lab
I am filling in for Karen Gillon at short notice, so I ask members to bear with me.Colleagues from the committee have already identified some of the key issu...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
I reiterate Brian Monteith's comment that the Scottish Conservatives welcome the bill.I will make two brief points on disability strategies, both of which re...
Michael Russell (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I also shall be brief. There is overwhelming unanimity in the chamber about the bill. We are now into discussions about the detail of how the bill will proce...
The Deputy Minister for Education and Young People (Nicol Stephen):
LD
I would like to continue the constructive tone. I agree with Michael Russell's final remarks about the spirit in which the bill has been debated so far. We h...
Dr Winnie Ewing (Highlands and Islands) (SNP):
SNP
Will the minister give way?
Nicol Stephen:
LD
I shall, but let me just finish.Schools should take reasonable steps to ensure that such children can participate fully in school trips. For example, schools...
Dr Ewing:
SNP
Should accessibility strategies always include deaf children who do not attend schools for the deaf?
Nicol Stephen:
LD
Yes, of course. To answer Dr Ewing's question, let me say that I was pleased that contributors to the debate—especially Jackie Baillie—stressed that the bill...
Michael Russell:
SNP
The minister has highlighted the link between the bill and the record of needs legislation, of which he has acknowledged that radical reform is needed. Can h...
Nicol Stephen:
LD
The short answer is no. I cannot give such an indication today. Announcements on legislative proposals are made as part of the full legislative programme tha...
Irene McGugan:
SNP
Will the minister take an intervention?
Nicol Stephen:
LD
I would be happy to take one final intervention.
Irene McGugan:
SNP
I very much appreciate the minister's giving way. Will he clarify what he said a moment ago about the avenues for redress that are available under different ...
Nicol Stephen:
LD
That is an issue that we debate often. All of us are anxious to ensure that there is as much consistency as possible between the disability legislation and t...