Chamber
Plenary, 06 Feb 2002
06 Feb 2002 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Community Care and Health (Scotland) Bill
I, too, welcome the bill and in particular the critical role that my good comrade Henry McLeish played in delivering it. I thought that his speech was the high point of the debate this afternoon. It is a shame that he had to wait until he was out of high office before he got a compliment from me. I think that that is a reflection on me, rather than on his time in high office. The bill is good and its enactment will make Scotland a better place in which to live. All members of Parliament, rather than any group in it, should be pleased that they have played a role in passing the bill.
I will direct my remarks at one aspect of the bill—free personal care for the elderly, which, as everyone knows, has been the subject of some controversy and indeed was the first policy area to put a strain on the relationship between this Parliament and the Westminster Parliament. There are those, particularly at Westminster, who make much of the cost of free personal care—£125 million a year—and of the fact that all elderly people, rich and poor alike, will be able to benefit. Their argument is that the £125 million could be put to much better use by being targeted on more deserving groups, such as the poor elderly who cannot get a place in a nursing home because their local authority does not have the funding to pay for that place.
That argument is not without substance—I think that any parliament should always make its priority those who are in the greatest need. However, it is often the case that the people who argue that resources should be targeted on the poor are those who resolutely refuse to raise taxes to target funding and investment on the poor. I am wary of those who argue that, because someone can well afford to pay for personal care, they should be made to pay for personal care. I once heard that approach described as "hyena socialism"—the rich are made to pay only when they are wounded, infirm, elderly or in need of some kind of care, whereas when they are fit, young and fully enjoying their wealth, they get away scot free.
I am in favour of making the fit-and-well rich pay, too, not by charging them for services that they do not receive, but by taxing them. That is what is required to square the circle. It is matter not just of regret, but of shame that the highest rate of income tax in this country remains the same as it was under Baroness Thatcher. That continues to reflect badly on us.
At the Health and Community Care Committee's meeting this morning, the chief medical officer for Scotland described a founding principle of the NHS—that it should be free at the point of use and funded from general taxation. We should consider free personal and nursing care for the elderly in that light. If the choice is between a universal welfare state with concomitant higher taxes and a targeted, means-tested welfare state with concomitant lower taxes, I am for the universal welfare state and the higher taxes. I hope that the Parliament is, too.
I will direct my remarks at one aspect of the bill—free personal care for the elderly, which, as everyone knows, has been the subject of some controversy and indeed was the first policy area to put a strain on the relationship between this Parliament and the Westminster Parliament. There are those, particularly at Westminster, who make much of the cost of free personal care—£125 million a year—and of the fact that all elderly people, rich and poor alike, will be able to benefit. Their argument is that the £125 million could be put to much better use by being targeted on more deserving groups, such as the poor elderly who cannot get a place in a nursing home because their local authority does not have the funding to pay for that place.
That argument is not without substance—I think that any parliament should always make its priority those who are in the greatest need. However, it is often the case that the people who argue that resources should be targeted on the poor are those who resolutely refuse to raise taxes to target funding and investment on the poor. I am wary of those who argue that, because someone can well afford to pay for personal care, they should be made to pay for personal care. I once heard that approach described as "hyena socialism"—the rich are made to pay only when they are wounded, infirm, elderly or in need of some kind of care, whereas when they are fit, young and fully enjoying their wealth, they get away scot free.
I am in favour of making the fit-and-well rich pay, too, not by charging them for services that they do not receive, but by taxing them. That is what is required to square the circle. It is matter not just of regret, but of shame that the highest rate of income tax in this country remains the same as it was under Baroness Thatcher. That continues to reflect badly on us.
At the Health and Community Care Committee's meeting this morning, the chief medical officer for Scotland described a founding principle of the NHS—that it should be free at the point of use and funded from general taxation. We should consider free personal and nursing care for the elderly in that light. If the choice is between a universal welfare state with concomitant higher taxes and a targeted, means-tested welfare state with concomitant lower taxes, I am for the universal welfare state and the higher taxes. I hope that the Parliament is, too.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr Murray Tosh):
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-2678, in the name of Malcolm Chisholm, which seeks agreement that the Community Care and Health (Scotland...
The Minister for Health and Community Care (Malcolm Chisholm):
Lab
I am pleased to be opening a stage 3 debate for the first time. We may celebrate the new parliamentary procedures that have been working so well throughout t...
Shona Robison (North-East Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
On behalf of the SNP, I am pleased to support the Community Care and Health (Scotland) Bill at its third and final stage.I want to place on record my thanks ...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
On behalf of the Scottish Conservatives, I support the bill. I thank all those who contributed to and supported the passage of the bill, including the witnes...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
I will break in to assure the members who are waiting their turn that I am confident that everybody will be called.
Mary Scanlon:
Con
I am on my final point. Perhaps you mean that I should take another 20 minutes, Presiding Officer.I welcome the introduction of direct payments, which will b...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
I should perhaps make it clear that, as we anticipate that we might require a motion without notice to bring forward decision time, I am reasonably relaxed a...
Mrs Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD):
LD
I am delighted to take part in today's debate and support the Community Care and Health (Scotland) Bill, which will provide a real improvement in community c...
Henry McLeish (Central Fife) (Lab):
Lab
I would like to say a few words at the conclusion of the debate on this bill. I would like to congratulate the Executive—Malcolm Chisholm and the new ministe...
Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
I, too, welcome the passage of the bill, which is an important piece of legislation. It represents a considerable improvement in the quality of life of carer...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
I have been relaxed about the time until now. A couple of additional members have pressed their request-to-speak buttons and we are back on course—ordinarily...
Janis Hughes (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab):
Lab
I begin my contribution as a member of the Health and Community Care Committee by thanking the clerks and everyone involved with the bill. The clerks to the ...
Ben Wallace (North-East Scotland) (Con):
Con
The bill is indeed a good-news story for the Parliament. The Scottish Conservatives believe that free personal care represents not only socially just funding...
Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
LD
Does Mr Wallace still believe that?
Ben Wallace:
Con
Oh yes. Mr Rumbles should not believe everything that he reads in The Scotsman.
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
I would not linger, Mr Wallace. Mrs Scanlon took up much of your time.
Ben Wallace:
Con
I hope that, as a result of the bill, we will see an end to the historical debates between—
Margaret Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab):
Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Ben Wallace:
Con
Yes.
Margaret Jamieson:
Lab
Ben Wallace has welcomed free personal care. Will he clarify whether that is the view of the Scottish Tories or the view of the UK Tories?
Ben Wallace:
Con
I would be delighted to clarify that. If Margaret Jamieson had read The Herald, she would have seen that Iain Duncan Smith is thinking of adopting the policy...
Rhona Brankin (Midlothian) (Lab):
Lab
Will the member give way?
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
No, the member is finishing.
Ben Wallace:
Con
I also thank Henry McLeish for standing up against considerable opposition in his party to achieve the provision of free personal care. I say to him that est...
Mr John McAllion (Dundee East) (Lab):
Lab
I, too, welcome the bill and in particular the critical role that my good comrade Henry McLeish played in delivering it. I thought that his speech was the hi...
Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West):
*
I warmly welcome the bill and particularly the proposals for free personal and nursing care for elderly people, which are in accordance with the recommendati...
Bill Butler (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab):
Lab
I am grateful for the opportunity to put on record my whole-hearted support for this progressive bill. It is obvious from the speeches of members of all part...
Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD):
LD
Like other members, I welcome the bill and pay tribute to the ministers, members of the Health and Community Care Committee, MSPs and people outside the Parl...
The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care (Hugh Henry):
Lab
I thank everyone who has been involved with the bill over the past four and a half months. That includes a great many people. Within the Parliament, I thank ...