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Chamber

Plenary, 31 Jan 2002

31 Jan 2002 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Scottish Public Sector Ombudsman Bill: Stage 1
I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate. I am impressed by the work that the Local Government Committee has done. We have received yet another stage 1 report from the committee, which these days seems to be on as often as "Coronation Street". Perhaps the masses do not follow the committee quite so faithfully, but it is probably as important.

I congratulate the committee on its clear and helpful report and I note its capacity to generate reports that enjoy consensus in the Parliament. It is significant that we can tackle issues on which we are agreed and that we can carry out our work accordingly. That underlines the importance of the Parliament's committees. It is essential that they are properly supported in carrying out their important work.

The consultation on the bill is regarded as having been effective. That is important, because the quality of the consultation that the Executive carries out is developing as a key issue both locally—in my constituency—and among organisations with which the Social Justice Committee comes into contact. In some cases, there is a feeling that consultation, although it is taking place, is not a genuine dialogue. This is a good example of the importance of real consultation with those who have an interest in the subject.

Complaints against public bodies feature strongly in my casework, and I am sure that I am not alone in being approached by people who have such concerns. Generally, I am happy with the responses of public organisations when I pursue complaints on behalf of my constituents. However, there is a danger that the message that goes out to the general public is that only the intervention of MSPs gets results. That is nice for an MSP who has managed to get a result for somebody, but it suggests something about the attitude that is taken towards the public when they seek to complain on their own behalf.

It is essential that public services should strive to get things right at the beginning, so that people do not want to complain. It is also essential that, when a complaint is made, the response that is given at an early stage is helpful. We are talking about a last resort rather than a first resort, although a lot of the problems arise when people first raise a concern and are confronted by a less than helpful, puzzled or bemused attitude from an organisation.

Often, constituents have come to me when they have been exasperated and frustrated by the lack of progress that they have experienced. If citizens have no faith in the system's capacity to acknowledge and address their concerns, we should not underestimate the impact of that on their commitment to and belief in public services. The perception has been expressed to me on several occasions that organisations are policing themselves and that there is no independent scrutiny of what is going on at an early stage. It is important that people have faith in the system. Few cases are taken up by the ombudsmen and the complainer receives support in only a few of those cases. That has an impact on people's confidence in the system. The system has to be seen to take complaints seriously. There is an issue about support for the person who is pursuing a complaint, which I shall return to in a moment.

Another theme that has become apparent to me is the anxiety of officials or those who work in public services about being frank and explicit when a complaint is raised with them. They may argue that they fear litigation. We must acknowledge that that fear can be genuine. However, it could also be a convenient excuse to avoid being transparent and open to comment. If there is an alleged threat of litigation, we must find ways in which those who are being complained against can be made to feel confident and protected in being explicit about their experience of the person who is pursuing a complaint. The traffic should not be one way.

A key issue is that those who feel that they have been treated badly often have to make their complaint at a difficult and painful time. The complaints system should be accessible regardless of an individual's resources and we must support people through the complexities of the system. I am particularly concerned that the most disadvantaged people in our communities—those who are most reliant on public services—are probably the least supported in pursuing their complaints. We must therefore reconsider the resourcing of local support systems, such as citizens advice bureaux, so that money does not determine people's capacity to enter into the complaints system and individuals can sustain themselves throughout the complaints procedure.

As I said, the ombudsman is the last resort. In my experience, the best results are achieved when those who work in the public sector are willing to meet at an early stage those who have concerns and want to pursue complaints. It is remarkable how many cases have been resolved through a willingness to be open rather than through transparency at a later stage. Commitment to that attitude underpins our approach to public services and is at the heart of what a lot of people who work in public services believe in. I add my support for the general principles of the bill and look forward to the debates at stages 2 and 3.

In the same item of business

The Minister for Finance and Public Services (Mr Andy Kerr): Lab
As the minister with responsibility for public services, I especially welcome the opportunity to debate the Scottish Public Sector Ombudsman Bill. The bill i...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): Con
I seek clarification from the minister. I am confused about what will happen if someone complains about a social worker. Will they complain to the Scottish S...
Mr Kerr: Lab
I will try to address that point now and perhaps follow it up by correspondence. In the first instance, the internal measures and mechanisms that are availab...
Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): SNP
As the minister said, the aim of the bill is to establish a public sector complaints system that is open, accountable, easily accessible to all and that has ...
Mr Keith Harding (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): Con
I am about to make a comment that the Presiding Officer will not hear often from an MSP. I am disappointed that I have been allocated 12 minutes to speak in ...
The Deputy Minister for Finance and Public Services (Peter Peacock): Lab
So are we. Laughter.
Mr Harding: Con
It's the way he tells them.The truth is that a serious issue is involved in the way that we use our parliamentary time. This morning, we are to use two and a...
Janis Hughes (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab): Lab
The member will be aware of the evidence that was taken by the Health and Community Care Committee, which showed that bodies such as the Mental Welfare Commi...
Mr Harding: Con
I thank Janis Hughes for repeating some of the evidence that was given to the Health and Community Care Committee. The Conservatives took that evidence into ...
Iain Smith (North-East Fife) (LD): LD
Like other members who have spoken, I am concerned about the amount of time that I have been allocated. I assure the Presiding Officer that I do not intend t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): SNP
We will be finished this morning by about 11.40—which is 50 minutes early. I ask the business managers to take note of that.
Iain Smith: LD
Thank you, Presiding Officer.This is an important bill, which merits a decent stage 1 debate. I hope that we have such a debate, even if we do not fill the t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer: SNP
I call Trish Godman, who may if she wishes have an infinity of time. However, it is my intention to suspend the meeting at about 11.40.
Trish Godman (West Renfrewshire) (Lab): Lab
Thank you, Presiding Officer. That is the first time that I have been told that I can speak for as long as I like. The Local Government Committee was in the ...
Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP): SNP
I congratulate Trish Godman on her speech. She has taken seven minutes, which might cut my time by about two minutes. She raised some of the points that I wa...
Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab): Lab
At this stage of the debate, it is difficult to be original, but I will try my best.Members have not really dealt with consultation. The Executive undertook ...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): Con
Members may think that the bill is fairly straightforward, but we should not forget those who are pursuing complaints in the system. As Sylvia Jackson spoke,...
Trish Godman: Lab
I have a point of clarification. My understanding is that the purpose of the one-stop shop is precisely to overcome such problems. We will not identify deput...
Mary Scanlon: Con
Yes, so did I. My evidence comes from the Mental Welfare Commission and others who felt that, when the commission examined a complaint, it examined it as a w...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab): Lab
Having just got used to speaking for a lot less time than usual, I will try, primarily in the interests of my colleagues' well-being, not to be tempted by th...
Dr Sylvia Jackson: Lab
What is the member's view of what the minister said about the broader interpretation of the word "maladministration" and of the difficulties in some areas, p...
Jackie Baillie: Lab
I accept that there are difficulties in taking wider views, but if our primary objective is to ensure that there are first-class public services, we should r...
Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab): Lab
I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate. I am impressed by the work that the Local Government Committee has done. We have received yet another stag...
The Deputy Presiding Officer: SNP
Before we move to closing speeches, I ask members who want to speak in the next debate—the mini-debate on procedures—to be in the chamber an hour early, at 1...
Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD): LD
I welcome the bill. It is a great step forward to bring several ombudsmen's tasks together in one group. The bill also goes some way towards widening and inc...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): Con
The Scottish Conservatives welcome the bill for the reasons that Keith Harding set out. The bill is not particularly controversial. I have a few brief points...
Mr Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab): Lab
What issues would the member like to debate in the chamber?
Murdo Fraser: Con
We could talk about the state of the national health service and the fall in the number of nurses in Scotland that was announced last week. We could talk abo...
Linda Fabiani (Central Scotland) (SNP): SNP
I was caught short by Murdo Fraser's brevity.On this occasion, I have a certain sympathy with the decision to debate the matter for only so long because ther...
The Deputy Minister for Finance and Public Services (Peter Peacock): Lab
Tricia Marwick had the courtesy to send us a note to explain why she was leaving the debate. I am sorry that she is unwell.I welcome the all-party support fo...