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Chamber

Plenary, 31 Jan 2002

31 Jan 2002 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Scottish Public Sector Ombudsman Bill: Stage 1
Thank you, Presiding Officer.

This is an important bill, which merits a decent stage 1 debate. I hope that we have such a debate, even if we do not fill the two and a half hours that have been allocated. As Keith Harding said, the debate is about the general principles of the bill, but it is also an opportunity for those of us who have considered the bill to raise the aspects that we would like the Executive and the Local Government Committee to consider for amendment at stage 2.

The principle of a public sector ombudsman is important. We have had ombudspersons, ombudsmen or ombudsmans—whatever the Scandinavian plural is—in the public sector in the United Kingdom for a considerable time. They provide an important function: the basic principle is that they are a backstop in complaints procedures. People can take their complaints to the ombudsman for independent consideration after the complaints procedures of the authority that is the subject of the complaint have been exhausted.

There is often concern among the public that public authorities do not give fair consideration to their complaints and see them from the perspective of their own interests. My experience in public service—as a councillor for many years and as an MSP—is that if one is not satisfied with the response one receives from an official at a lower level and one writes to the chief executive of the council, the chief executive will check with the official with whom the complainant was not happy, so one ends up getting the same answer. There is an element of failure to consider matters—even within a council's own operations—independently. It is important to have independent consideration of complaints to fall back on.

For that reason, I am slightly concerned by the Executive's reluctance to consider extending the remit of the public sector ombudsman beyond the consideration of complaints within the traditional definition of maladministration. Although ombudsmen might understand the term maladministration, the public—and even councillors, MSPs and MPs—do not feel that they understand what it means. It is important to consider that point in the context of cases where injustice is felt to have been done in the public sector.

I draw the attention of the chamber, and particularly of the Executive, to the written submission from the Scottish Consumer Council, which is reproduced in the Local Government Committee's stage 1 report. In paragraph 11 of its submission, the Scottish Consumer Council says:

"The main ombudsman schemes in the public sector deal only with ‘maladministration'. However, the Housing Association Ombudsman for Scotland ‘may investigate and report on complaints other than those in which injustice has been caused by maladministration if he is satisfied that in the particular circumstances it is in the public interest to do so.' The Health Service Ombudsman can deal with complaints about ‘poor service by a health service body'. The remit of the public service ombudsman should be extended beyond maladministration, to include the kind of cases already covered by these two schemes."

Therefore, there is an opportunity to look beyond maladministration, in cases where an injustice has been caused by a failure of service or by another means that does not fall under the technical definition of maladministration.

In paragraph 13 of its submission, the Scottish Consumer Council says:

"The guiding principle should be that which makes sense to consumers. If, at the end of an authority's complaints procedure, a problem remains unresolved, consumers should be able to expect an impartial overview by an ombudsman."

That is a useful principle. If, having gone through the complaints procedure of a council, health body or housing association, a consumer is still unsatisfied with the response, there should be the opportunity for independent consideration of the complaint. The ombudsman may come back and say that the consumer is wrong—often, people who feel that an injustice has been done do not have a case—but independent consideration should be available.

I urge the Executive to consider whether the remit of the ombudsman could be extended to allow consideration of failure of service and wider issues, as is the case with the housing association ombudsman. It is not acceptable to say that, because the extended remit of the housing association ombudsman has been used only once, it should not exist. The extended remit is a useful backstop and can allow the ombudsman to consider the informal channels that are available.

We should consider whether the definitions in the bill should contain an additional element to make it clear that the ombudsman has the power of informal investigation. There is concern that the bill makes clear only the powers of formal investigation that are open to ombudsmen; it does not make it clear that they continue to have the power to conduct informal investigations. The Scottish parliamentary commissioner for administration and the local government ombudsman both raised that concern in evidence to the committee.

Michael Buckley, the Scottish parliamentary commissioner, said:

"I am concerned at the well-nigh exclusive emphasis in the Bill on investigation. The only substantive functions of the new Ombudsman mentioned in the Bill are to investigate and to report. Yet the overwhelming majority of cases are currently settled, and are likely to continue to be so settled … in a way other than that to be provided for by statute … I believe that the new Ombudsman may be vulnerable to challenge, not only in the courts but also by the auditors, if he or she adopts the sort of working methods (such as informal resolution) that I believe to be appropriate."

That practitioner is genuinely concerned that, because the bill does not make it clear that the ombudsman has the powers, there might be a challenge. That needs to be resolved.

I am not talking about heavy-handed legislation; a problem is that our draftsmen and civil servants think that if something is put into legislation, there must also be miles of regulation. I am talking about including a section to enable informal investigation to take place and to ensure that it is clear in statute that the ombudsman has that power. I hope that the Executive will consider that at stage 2.

The Health and Community Care Committee has concerns about the designation of deputy ombudsmen. We should not end up with an extra layer of bureaucracy because we have set up a series of doors, with one door on top of them. Instead, we should have a one-door stop, which allows the ombudsman flexibility to ensure that all investigations are dealt with adequately and effectively. That does not mean that there should not be expertise. I have no doubt that the ombudsman, when appointed, will ensure that there is expertise in housing, health, local government and the public sector in general, as covered by the parliamentary ombudsman. Those are important areas that must be covered. Let us not lay down in statute the structure for the new public sector—or services—ombudsman.

I support the proposal to change the name to the Scottish public services ombudsman. It is neat because if there is already stationery with the initials printed on, it will not need to be changed.

In the same item of business

The Minister for Finance and Public Services (Mr Andy Kerr): Lab
As the minister with responsibility for public services, I especially welcome the opportunity to debate the Scottish Public Sector Ombudsman Bill. The bill i...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): Con
I seek clarification from the minister. I am confused about what will happen if someone complains about a social worker. Will they complain to the Scottish S...
Mr Kerr: Lab
I will try to address that point now and perhaps follow it up by correspondence. In the first instance, the internal measures and mechanisms that are availab...
Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): SNP
As the minister said, the aim of the bill is to establish a public sector complaints system that is open, accountable, easily accessible to all and that has ...
Mr Keith Harding (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): Con
I am about to make a comment that the Presiding Officer will not hear often from an MSP. I am disappointed that I have been allocated 12 minutes to speak in ...
The Deputy Minister for Finance and Public Services (Peter Peacock): Lab
So are we. Laughter.
Mr Harding: Con
It's the way he tells them.The truth is that a serious issue is involved in the way that we use our parliamentary time. This morning, we are to use two and a...
Janis Hughes (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab): Lab
The member will be aware of the evidence that was taken by the Health and Community Care Committee, which showed that bodies such as the Mental Welfare Commi...
Mr Harding: Con
I thank Janis Hughes for repeating some of the evidence that was given to the Health and Community Care Committee. The Conservatives took that evidence into ...
Iain Smith (North-East Fife) (LD): LD
Like other members who have spoken, I am concerned about the amount of time that I have been allocated. I assure the Presiding Officer that I do not intend t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): SNP
We will be finished this morning by about 11.40—which is 50 minutes early. I ask the business managers to take note of that.
Iain Smith: LD
Thank you, Presiding Officer.This is an important bill, which merits a decent stage 1 debate. I hope that we have such a debate, even if we do not fill the t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer: SNP
I call Trish Godman, who may if she wishes have an infinity of time. However, it is my intention to suspend the meeting at about 11.40.
Trish Godman (West Renfrewshire) (Lab): Lab
Thank you, Presiding Officer. That is the first time that I have been told that I can speak for as long as I like. The Local Government Committee was in the ...
Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP): SNP
I congratulate Trish Godman on her speech. She has taken seven minutes, which might cut my time by about two minutes. She raised some of the points that I wa...
Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab): Lab
At this stage of the debate, it is difficult to be original, but I will try my best.Members have not really dealt with consultation. The Executive undertook ...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): Con
Members may think that the bill is fairly straightforward, but we should not forget those who are pursuing complaints in the system. As Sylvia Jackson spoke,...
Trish Godman: Lab
I have a point of clarification. My understanding is that the purpose of the one-stop shop is precisely to overcome such problems. We will not identify deput...
Mary Scanlon: Con
Yes, so did I. My evidence comes from the Mental Welfare Commission and others who felt that, when the commission examined a complaint, it examined it as a w...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab): Lab
Having just got used to speaking for a lot less time than usual, I will try, primarily in the interests of my colleagues' well-being, not to be tempted by th...
Dr Sylvia Jackson: Lab
What is the member's view of what the minister said about the broader interpretation of the word "maladministration" and of the difficulties in some areas, p...
Jackie Baillie: Lab
I accept that there are difficulties in taking wider views, but if our primary objective is to ensure that there are first-class public services, we should r...
Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab): Lab
I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate. I am impressed by the work that the Local Government Committee has done. We have received yet another stag...
The Deputy Presiding Officer: SNP
Before we move to closing speeches, I ask members who want to speak in the next debate—the mini-debate on procedures—to be in the chamber an hour early, at 1...
Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD): LD
I welcome the bill. It is a great step forward to bring several ombudsmen's tasks together in one group. The bill also goes some way towards widening and inc...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): Con
The Scottish Conservatives welcome the bill for the reasons that Keith Harding set out. The bill is not particularly controversial. I have a few brief points...
Mr Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab): Lab
What issues would the member like to debate in the chamber?
Murdo Fraser: Con
We could talk about the state of the national health service and the fall in the number of nurses in Scotland that was announced last week. We could talk abo...
Linda Fabiani (Central Scotland) (SNP): SNP
I was caught short by Murdo Fraser's brevity.On this occasion, I have a certain sympathy with the decision to debate the matter for only so long because ther...
The Deputy Minister for Finance and Public Services (Peter Peacock): Lab
Tricia Marwick had the courtesy to send us a note to explain why she was leaving the debate. I am sorry that she is unwell.I welcome the all-party support fo...