Chamber
Plenary, 28 Nov 2001
28 Nov 2001 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Community Care and Health (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I do not know why Bill Aitken is so worried about blank cheques. He knows perfectly well that one has been issued to pay for the new Parliament. Anything that this legislation will cost us will be cheap at the price. Dare I whisper that the latest bill for roads and mere landscaping is more than £14 million. I do not know how one could possibly rack up such a bill for trees and dauds of grass.
However, that is beside the point. I welcome the two new Deputy Ministers for Health and Community Care. Given the fact that the brief is so huge, having two deputy ministers is a sensible move. Furthermore, I welcome Malcolm Chisholm back into the spotlight. I have always known him to be a man of principles, and I hope that he does not lose any along the way. One can occasionally mislay these things if one is in a high ministerial position. I also pay my due to Susan Deacon, who took on a terrible burden as the first Minister for Health and Community Care in the first Scottish Parliament.
The Parliament sometimes has the public popularity rating of scabies or head lice, but today we have something to be rather proud of. The bill could not have been scrutinised and approved in anything like this time span if we had stuck with Westminster. It would have taken two or more years to secure even a debate for Scots on this subject, yet a bill has been drafted and is on our desks in just over two and a half years.
I think back to the beginning of the Health and Community Care Committee—I am an original committee member—and remember my colleague, Kay Ullrich, a former social worker, going on and on about free personal care and the Sutherland report. We achieved total consensus on the issue. We had valiant backing from our convener, Margaret Smith, and we showed the advantage of members' having come from real jobs before they entered politics. In our midst, we had Margaret Jamieson, a former Unison official; Shona Robison, a former care organiser; Dr Richard Simpson; and Mary Scanlon, who has vast life experience and who did indeed—I can testify to it—back the provision of free personal care. All that experience helped to bring us together in the battle on behalf of people who have been neglected for so long.
Our generation's record on helping pensioners is really shameful. We have not got much time left to change that because the generation that won the war, created a national health service and gave us almost every benefit that we now enjoy is leaving us. We have let those people down shamefully. In their old age, they are not being rewarded but punished simply for being old and frail. I offer a word of warning. The bill must be a test for the new Cabinet. There must be no delay, no foot-dragging and no interference from Westminster. The bill is ours and we are rather proud of it. Westminster could not have done the job that the Scottish Parliament has done.
I support Janis Hughes and others who have mentioned the need to include our commitment to carers in the bill. Malcolm Chisholm spoke of what he called the
"need to distinguish between good intentions and good law"
when putting that commitment in the bill, as Carers Scotland has pleaded on behalf of Scotland's 620,000 carers. Carers deserve that dignity and assurance. Good lawyers should be able to find the words to back good intentions with good law. Otherwise, what are we paying them for?
I hope that free personal care will one day extend to others besides the elderly—to all who are in need. The plight of younger disabled people is too often ignored. It is summed up by a case that I am dealing with right now, in Baillieston, in the east end of Glasgow. A 41-year-old woman who is suffering from multiple sclerosis has been put into an old folk's home there because there was nowhere else to put her temporarily. There had been huge bureaucratic delays in the building of an extension to her home. Help to keep people in their homes is one of the budget facilities that we must consider, because people want to remain at home with their families whenever possible. That 41-year-old woman, who tonight will have to spend another night in an old folk's home, is the sort of person whom we must help in the future. However, today we have at least made a start in helping older people.
However, that is beside the point. I welcome the two new Deputy Ministers for Health and Community Care. Given the fact that the brief is so huge, having two deputy ministers is a sensible move. Furthermore, I welcome Malcolm Chisholm back into the spotlight. I have always known him to be a man of principles, and I hope that he does not lose any along the way. One can occasionally mislay these things if one is in a high ministerial position. I also pay my due to Susan Deacon, who took on a terrible burden as the first Minister for Health and Community Care in the first Scottish Parliament.
The Parliament sometimes has the public popularity rating of scabies or head lice, but today we have something to be rather proud of. The bill could not have been scrutinised and approved in anything like this time span if we had stuck with Westminster. It would have taken two or more years to secure even a debate for Scots on this subject, yet a bill has been drafted and is on our desks in just over two and a half years.
I think back to the beginning of the Health and Community Care Committee—I am an original committee member—and remember my colleague, Kay Ullrich, a former social worker, going on and on about free personal care and the Sutherland report. We achieved total consensus on the issue. We had valiant backing from our convener, Margaret Smith, and we showed the advantage of members' having come from real jobs before they entered politics. In our midst, we had Margaret Jamieson, a former Unison official; Shona Robison, a former care organiser; Dr Richard Simpson; and Mary Scanlon, who has vast life experience and who did indeed—I can testify to it—back the provision of free personal care. All that experience helped to bring us together in the battle on behalf of people who have been neglected for so long.
Our generation's record on helping pensioners is really shameful. We have not got much time left to change that because the generation that won the war, created a national health service and gave us almost every benefit that we now enjoy is leaving us. We have let those people down shamefully. In their old age, they are not being rewarded but punished simply for being old and frail. I offer a word of warning. The bill must be a test for the new Cabinet. There must be no delay, no foot-dragging and no interference from Westminster. The bill is ours and we are rather proud of it. Westminster could not have done the job that the Scottish Parliament has done.
I support Janis Hughes and others who have mentioned the need to include our commitment to carers in the bill. Malcolm Chisholm spoke of what he called the
"need to distinguish between good intentions and good law"
when putting that commitment in the bill, as Carers Scotland has pleaded on behalf of Scotland's 620,000 carers. Carers deserve that dignity and assurance. Good lawyers should be able to find the words to back good intentions with good law. Otherwise, what are we paying them for?
I hope that free personal care will one day extend to others besides the elderly—to all who are in need. The plight of younger disabled people is too often ignored. It is summed up by a case that I am dealing with right now, in Baillieston, in the east end of Glasgow. A 41-year-old woman who is suffering from multiple sclerosis has been put into an old folk's home there because there was nowhere else to put her temporarily. There had been huge bureaucratic delays in the building of an extension to her home. Help to keep people in their homes is one of the budget facilities that we must consider, because people want to remain at home with their families whenever possible. That 41-year-old woman, who tonight will have to spend another night in an old folk's home, is the sort of person whom we must help in the future. However, today we have at least made a start in helping older people.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel):
NPA
Our next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-2247, in the name of Susan Deacon, on the general principles of the Community Care and Health (Scotland) ...
The Minister for Health and Community Care (Malcolm Chisholm):
Lab
There have been many significant developments in community care in this Parliament's lifetime, and the Community Care and Health (Scotland) Bill marks a furt...
Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
I welcome the new minister to his post and wish him well in the job. I congratulate the two new deputy health ministers, although it is perhaps appropriate t...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
Does the member recognise that all 19 Conservatives voted in favour of free personal care? Will she endorse that fact?
Nicola Sturgeon:
SNP
I accept that, but it was the 19 years that preceded those 19 votes that led to me to make that judgment about the Conservative party. The real threat to fre...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
I congratulate the new minister. That he has gone from being a member of the Health and Community Care Committee and back-bench rebel to Minister for Health ...
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
I want to point out that that was not correctly transcribed because, if members think about it, what I said was that free personal care could be regarded as ...
Mary Scanlon:
Con
My quote came from the Official Report.Page 67 of the Sutherland report states that personal care"falls within the internationally recognised definition of n...
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
I am sure that the member will accept that clinics are hardly an institutional setting. Does she accept that not only the number of visits but their length a...
Mary Scanlon:
Con
I welcome the minister's point about increases in funding, but as I think all members of the Health and Community Care Committee have said, we are looking fo...
Mrs Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD):
LD
I welcome Malcolm Chisholm to his new job as Minister for Health and Community Care. As Nicola Sturgeon said, that is one of the most difficult jobs in Gover...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
SNP
We move now to open debate. Sir David announced that time would be tight, but some speakers have dropped out since then, so I shall allow up to five minutes ...
Margaret Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab):
Lab
I record my congratulations to Malcolm Chisholm, Mary Mulligan and Hugh Henry on their appointments, and I look forward to working with them in the coming mo...
Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
I congratulate Malcolm Chisholm on his appointment. We have known each other for a long time in different roles and I am sure that he will bring to the job h...
Janis Hughes (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab):
Lab
I echo the comments that have been made elsewhere in the chamber and offer my congratulations to Malcolm Chisholm and to the two new Deputy Ministers for Hea...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
When this matter was first debated, there was a consensus that the bill was an important piece of legislation. It is a sad fact that none of us is getting an...
Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
I do not know why Bill Aitken is so worried about blank cheques. He knows perfectly well that one has been issued to pay for the new Parliament. Anything tha...
Nora Radcliffe (Gordon) (LD):
LD
I congratulate the new health team, wish them well in their work and pay tribute to Susan Deacon for her contribution as our first Minister for Health and Co...
Irene Oldfather (Cunninghame South) (Lab):
Lab
I offer my congratulations to the new minister and his two deputies. I also extend my good wishes to Susan Deacon. As Margaret Smith said, two of the three m...
Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
I take part in the debate with great personal pleasure. That is partly because, as I am now on the wrong side of 50, I am keen to ensure that as much as poss...
Colin Campbell (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I want to reiterate the point made anent the £20 million attendance allowances that are being held back by the UK Exchequer, to which the people of Scotland ...
Ben Wallace (North-East Scotland) (Con):
Con
If Scotland was independent, will Mr Campbell tell us where he would find the £20 million? Whom would he tax to get the £20 million to provide free personal ...
Colin Campbell:
SNP
We have already paid the money in tax to the United Kingdom Exchequer; it is sitting there as part of the totals that we have already paid in. Good try, Mr W...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
If members want their time to be extended, permission will gladly be given on this occasion.
Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab):
Lab
I add my congratulations to Malcolm Chisholm and his two new deputies. I wish them well in their new role. I pay tribute to the work of Susan Deacon, our for...
Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD):
LD
I welcome the minister to his new post. When I first became a spokesman on health, there seemed to be at least two health debates a week. I was thrown in at ...
Members:
Go on.
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
Order. Carry on, Mr Raffan.
Mr Raffan:
LD
A lot has happened since then, not least in the past few days—so that period is almost pre-history. We have come a long way since the Minister for Parliament...
Nicola Sturgeon:
SNP
Will the member give way?