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Chamber

Plenary, 28 Nov 2001

28 Nov 2001 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Community Care and Health (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
When this matter was first debated, there was a consensus that the bill was an important piece of legislation. It is a sad fact that none of us is getting any younger. The fact is that the people of Scotland, including Nicola Sturgeon, are all getting older and, more seriously, all getting older at the same time. Given that demographic difficulty, there are difficult times ahead unless we resolve matters and consider carefully the approach that we are going to take to care of this nature.

We have to recognise that there have been failures in the present system. Joined-up thinking is one of new Labour's buzz phrases, but unfortunately it is manifestly obvious that joined-up thinking has not been apparent between the health authorities and local authority social work departments over many years. Accordingly, that issue must be examined. I see from the Health and Community Care Committee's report that some consideration has been given to it already. That can only be of benefit.

Some of the figures are pretty depressing. The numbers of people affected by bedblocking push things far beyond a tragedy, and the issue clearly impinges upon individuals with sometimes devastating effects. For example, 2,954 people in Scotland are unable to leave hospital because the appropriate arrangements are not in place. There are 335 such cases in the greater Glasgow area; indeed, I find it surprising that in the Lothian area, where the minister and deputy minister—to whom I offer my congratulations—have their constituencies, the figure is as high as 463. As for Hugh Henry—whom I can see watching avidly from the back of the chamber and whom I also want to congratulate—the figure is 452 in the health board area that contains his constituency. Indeed, the number of bedblocking cases in the Renfrewshire Council area is 232, which possibly reflects the era when Hugh Henry was in charge. Those issues have to be examined closely and progressed.

We were encouraged by the minister's comments on the definition of personal care. As the matter is of supreme importance, we do not want the definition to require interpretation by the courts. The wording must be sufficiently tight to ensure that no difficulties arise.

The question of choice and direct payments is vital. Frankly, it is little short of a disgrace that uptake by local authorities is so low, and I strongly suggest that they should be made to participate in the direct payments scheme. That can only benefit all concerned.

As Mary Scanlon said, when our party decided to support the Sutherland recommendations we did not suggest that a blank cheque should be issued. We stated the tremendous savings that could be made by scrapping health boards and solving the current bedblocking scandal. That is the nub of the problem.

Janis Hughes's words were particularly apt. Sadly, we have failed to recognise the immense contribution that carers have made to Scottish society. Many of them lead a very difficult life because of their commitment to the individual for whom they care. It is particularly striking that carers organisations should have underlined in correspondence the fact that their members have often been poorly served by statutory agencies. Those people are frequently not informed of their rights, are left isolated and find authority difficult to deal with. We have to address that situation, and the bill contains a provision to do so. If we do not do so, paragraph 66 of the policy memorandum—which ominously mentions "failures"—would have to be brought into play.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): NPA
Our next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-2247, in the name of Susan Deacon, on the general principles of the Community Care and Health (Scotland) ...
The Minister for Health and Community Care (Malcolm Chisholm): Lab
There have been many significant developments in community care in this Parliament's lifetime, and the Community Care and Health (Scotland) Bill marks a furt...
Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP): SNP
I welcome the new minister to his post and wish him well in the job. I congratulate the two new deputy health ministers, although it is perhaps appropriate t...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): Con
Does the member recognise that all 19 Conservatives voted in favour of free personal care? Will she endorse that fact?
Nicola Sturgeon: SNP
I accept that, but it was the 19 years that preceded those 19 votes that led to me to make that judgment about the Conservative party. The real threat to fre...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): Con
I congratulate the new minister. That he has gone from being a member of the Health and Community Care Committee and back-bench rebel to Minister for Health ...
Malcolm Chisholm: Lab
I want to point out that that was not correctly transcribed because, if members think about it, what I said was that free personal care could be regarded as ...
Mary Scanlon: Con
My quote came from the Official Report.Page 67 of the Sutherland report states that personal care"falls within the internationally recognised definition of n...
Malcolm Chisholm: Lab
I am sure that the member will accept that clinics are hardly an institutional setting. Does she accept that not only the number of visits but their length a...
Mary Scanlon: Con
I welcome the minister's point about increases in funding, but as I think all members of the Health and Community Care Committee have said, we are looking fo...
Mrs Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): LD
I welcome Malcolm Chisholm to his new job as Minister for Health and Community Care. As Nicola Sturgeon said, that is one of the most difficult jobs in Gover...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): SNP
We move now to open debate. Sir David announced that time would be tight, but some speakers have dropped out since then, so I shall allow up to five minutes ...
Margaret Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab): Lab
I record my congratulations to Malcolm Chisholm, Mary Mulligan and Hugh Henry on their appointments, and I look forward to working with them in the coming mo...
Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): SNP
I congratulate Malcolm Chisholm on his appointment. We have known each other for a long time in different roles and I am sure that he will bring to the job h...
Janis Hughes (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab): Lab
I echo the comments that have been made elsewhere in the chamber and offer my congratulations to Malcolm Chisholm and to the two new Deputy Ministers for Hea...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con): Con
When this matter was first debated, there was a consensus that the bill was an important piece of legislation. It is a sad fact that none of us is getting an...
Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP): SNP
I do not know why Bill Aitken is so worried about blank cheques. He knows perfectly well that one has been issued to pay for the new Parliament. Anything tha...
Nora Radcliffe (Gordon) (LD): LD
I congratulate the new health team, wish them well in their work and pay tribute to Susan Deacon for her contribution as our first Minister for Health and Co...
Irene Oldfather (Cunninghame South) (Lab): Lab
I offer my congratulations to the new minister and his two deputies. I also extend my good wishes to Susan Deacon. As Margaret Smith said, two of the three m...
Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con): Con
I take part in the debate with great personal pleasure. That is partly because, as I am now on the wrong side of 50, I am keen to ensure that as much as poss...
Colin Campbell (West of Scotland) (SNP): SNP
I want to reiterate the point made anent the £20 million attendance allowances that are being held back by the UK Exchequer, to which the people of Scotland ...
Ben Wallace (North-East Scotland) (Con): Con
If Scotland was independent, will Mr Campbell tell us where he would find the £20 million? Whom would he tax to get the £20 million to provide free personal ...
Colin Campbell: SNP
We have already paid the money in tax to the United Kingdom Exchequer; it is sitting there as part of the totals that we have already paid in. Good try, Mr W...
The Deputy Presiding Officer: SNP
If members want their time to be extended, permission will gladly be given on this occasion.
Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): Lab
I add my congratulations to Malcolm Chisholm and his two new deputies. I wish them well in their new role. I pay tribute to the work of Susan Deacon, our for...
Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): LD
I welcome the minister to his new post. When I first became a spokesman on health, there seemed to be at least two health debates a week. I was thrown in at ...
Members:
Go on.
The Deputy Presiding Officer: SNP
Order. Carry on, Mr Raffan.
Mr Raffan: LD
A lot has happened since then, not least in the past few days—so that period is almost pre-history. We have come a long way since the Minister for Parliament...
Nicola Sturgeon: SNP
Will the member give way?