Chamber
Plenary, 28 Nov 2001
28 Nov 2001 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Community Care and Health (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I echo the comments that have been made elsewhere in the chamber and offer my congratulations to Malcolm Chisholm and to the two new Deputy Ministers for Health and Community Care. I thank Susan Deacon for her past contribution to the health portfolio. I declare as an interest that I am a member of Unison.
The Community Care and Health (Scotland) Bill represents a significant step forward in the care of the most vulnerable people in our communities. I believe that the Executive should be praised for that. That is not to say that the bill is perfect. I was disappointed that it was published and introduced to the committee before the care development group's proposals were published. We heard from some of the people from whom we took evidence of their concerns about the timing. Sometimes we have to be careful about just how quickly we push legislation through. It would have made more sense to wait for the care development group's report before introducing the bill to Parliament.
Along with fellow committee members, I feel that the bill suffers from not having a statement of its general principles. That comment has been made by others this afternoon. While we do not doubt the current Minister for Health and Community Care's good intentions, it would be helpful to have a clear statement of what this bill seeks to achieve. I accept the minister's argument in his opening speech about legal meanings, but I urge him to consider whether further clarity may be possible. It would also be helpful, as we have already heard, to have a clear definition of what constitutes personal care. I am delighted to hear from the minister that the Executive will lodge amendments to provide that at stage 2, in line with the recommendations of the care development group.
I will focus on the provisions in the bill for carers. Members who have read the Health and Community Care Committee's stage 1 report will have noted the comments of Isobel Allan of Carers Scotland, who gave evidence to the Health and Community Care Committee. She lives in my constituency and is an active member of Cambuslang Community Carers. I have been particularly interested in legislation to support carers, which I have mentioned on numerous occasions in various debates in this chamber. I am pleased that the bill will extend the right to an independent assessment for carers. That is important and has been long awaited by carers groups. I hope that an examination of the provision of respite care will be an integral part of assessments.
Isobel Allan told the committee:
"Forgive me for personalising the issue—I cannot speak for the 600,000 other carers—but, as a carer, I need what you need. I need the right to have a normal life. I am not looking for anything special or anything extra. I just want the chance to sleep, to eat, to go out, to finish a meal and to have some kind of ordinariness in my life. The only way that I can get that is by getting a break. That is crucial; it is paramount."—[Official Report, Health and Community Care Committee, 24 October 2001; c 2072.]
Ensuring that those breaks are provided for people like Isobel Allan is vitally important. I hope that that will be a crucial part of the assessments.
The Health and Community Care Committee recommended that the bill should be amended to impose a duty on local authorities to take steps to identify carers and ensure that they are informed of their right to an assessment. The evidence that we took persuaded us that it is important that that duty is enshrined in legislation, not just in the guidance. I hope that the Executive will respond favourably to that request in due course.
I echo my colleague Margaret Jamieson's comments on pay and conditions for staff who are involved in joint working. Good pay and conditions are vitally important not only for the motivation of staff, but for their recruitment and retention, which is sometimes a major problem in the caring professions.
The Community Care and Health (Scotland) Bill is a good piece of legislation. It is another step towards helping those who need it most. I hope that the Executive will take note of the committee's report, which has been offered in the best possible spirit, and produce proposals to make the bill even more effective.
The Community Care and Health (Scotland) Bill represents a significant step forward in the care of the most vulnerable people in our communities. I believe that the Executive should be praised for that. That is not to say that the bill is perfect. I was disappointed that it was published and introduced to the committee before the care development group's proposals were published. We heard from some of the people from whom we took evidence of their concerns about the timing. Sometimes we have to be careful about just how quickly we push legislation through. It would have made more sense to wait for the care development group's report before introducing the bill to Parliament.
Along with fellow committee members, I feel that the bill suffers from not having a statement of its general principles. That comment has been made by others this afternoon. While we do not doubt the current Minister for Health and Community Care's good intentions, it would be helpful to have a clear statement of what this bill seeks to achieve. I accept the minister's argument in his opening speech about legal meanings, but I urge him to consider whether further clarity may be possible. It would also be helpful, as we have already heard, to have a clear definition of what constitutes personal care. I am delighted to hear from the minister that the Executive will lodge amendments to provide that at stage 2, in line with the recommendations of the care development group.
I will focus on the provisions in the bill for carers. Members who have read the Health and Community Care Committee's stage 1 report will have noted the comments of Isobel Allan of Carers Scotland, who gave evidence to the Health and Community Care Committee. She lives in my constituency and is an active member of Cambuslang Community Carers. I have been particularly interested in legislation to support carers, which I have mentioned on numerous occasions in various debates in this chamber. I am pleased that the bill will extend the right to an independent assessment for carers. That is important and has been long awaited by carers groups. I hope that an examination of the provision of respite care will be an integral part of assessments.
Isobel Allan told the committee:
"Forgive me for personalising the issue—I cannot speak for the 600,000 other carers—but, as a carer, I need what you need. I need the right to have a normal life. I am not looking for anything special or anything extra. I just want the chance to sleep, to eat, to go out, to finish a meal and to have some kind of ordinariness in my life. The only way that I can get that is by getting a break. That is crucial; it is paramount."—[Official Report, Health and Community Care Committee, 24 October 2001; c 2072.]
Ensuring that those breaks are provided for people like Isobel Allan is vitally important. I hope that that will be a crucial part of the assessments.
The Health and Community Care Committee recommended that the bill should be amended to impose a duty on local authorities to take steps to identify carers and ensure that they are informed of their right to an assessment. The evidence that we took persuaded us that it is important that that duty is enshrined in legislation, not just in the guidance. I hope that the Executive will respond favourably to that request in due course.
I echo my colleague Margaret Jamieson's comments on pay and conditions for staff who are involved in joint working. Good pay and conditions are vitally important not only for the motivation of staff, but for their recruitment and retention, which is sometimes a major problem in the caring professions.
The Community Care and Health (Scotland) Bill is a good piece of legislation. It is another step towards helping those who need it most. I hope that the Executive will take note of the committee's report, which has been offered in the best possible spirit, and produce proposals to make the bill even more effective.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel):
NPA
Our next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-2247, in the name of Susan Deacon, on the general principles of the Community Care and Health (Scotland) ...
The Minister for Health and Community Care (Malcolm Chisholm):
Lab
There have been many significant developments in community care in this Parliament's lifetime, and the Community Care and Health (Scotland) Bill marks a furt...
Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
I welcome the new minister to his post and wish him well in the job. I congratulate the two new deputy health ministers, although it is perhaps appropriate t...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
Does the member recognise that all 19 Conservatives voted in favour of free personal care? Will she endorse that fact?
Nicola Sturgeon:
SNP
I accept that, but it was the 19 years that preceded those 19 votes that led to me to make that judgment about the Conservative party. The real threat to fre...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
I congratulate the new minister. That he has gone from being a member of the Health and Community Care Committee and back-bench rebel to Minister for Health ...
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
I want to point out that that was not correctly transcribed because, if members think about it, what I said was that free personal care could be regarded as ...
Mary Scanlon:
Con
My quote came from the Official Report.Page 67 of the Sutherland report states that personal care"falls within the internationally recognised definition of n...
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
I am sure that the member will accept that clinics are hardly an institutional setting. Does she accept that not only the number of visits but their length a...
Mary Scanlon:
Con
I welcome the minister's point about increases in funding, but as I think all members of the Health and Community Care Committee have said, we are looking fo...
Mrs Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD):
LD
I welcome Malcolm Chisholm to his new job as Minister for Health and Community Care. As Nicola Sturgeon said, that is one of the most difficult jobs in Gover...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
SNP
We move now to open debate. Sir David announced that time would be tight, but some speakers have dropped out since then, so I shall allow up to five minutes ...
Margaret Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab):
Lab
I record my congratulations to Malcolm Chisholm, Mary Mulligan and Hugh Henry on their appointments, and I look forward to working with them in the coming mo...
Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
I congratulate Malcolm Chisholm on his appointment. We have known each other for a long time in different roles and I am sure that he will bring to the job h...
Janis Hughes (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab):
Lab
I echo the comments that have been made elsewhere in the chamber and offer my congratulations to Malcolm Chisholm and to the two new Deputy Ministers for Hea...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
When this matter was first debated, there was a consensus that the bill was an important piece of legislation. It is a sad fact that none of us is getting an...
Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
I do not know why Bill Aitken is so worried about blank cheques. He knows perfectly well that one has been issued to pay for the new Parliament. Anything tha...
Nora Radcliffe (Gordon) (LD):
LD
I congratulate the new health team, wish them well in their work and pay tribute to Susan Deacon for her contribution as our first Minister for Health and Co...
Irene Oldfather (Cunninghame South) (Lab):
Lab
I offer my congratulations to the new minister and his two deputies. I also extend my good wishes to Susan Deacon. As Margaret Smith said, two of the three m...
Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
I take part in the debate with great personal pleasure. That is partly because, as I am now on the wrong side of 50, I am keen to ensure that as much as poss...
Colin Campbell (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I want to reiterate the point made anent the £20 million attendance allowances that are being held back by the UK Exchequer, to which the people of Scotland ...
Ben Wallace (North-East Scotland) (Con):
Con
If Scotland was independent, will Mr Campbell tell us where he would find the £20 million? Whom would he tax to get the £20 million to provide free personal ...
Colin Campbell:
SNP
We have already paid the money in tax to the United Kingdom Exchequer; it is sitting there as part of the totals that we have already paid in. Good try, Mr W...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
If members want their time to be extended, permission will gladly be given on this occasion.
Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab):
Lab
I add my congratulations to Malcolm Chisholm and his two new deputies. I wish them well in their new role. I pay tribute to the work of Susan Deacon, our for...
Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD):
LD
I welcome the minister to his new post. When I first became a spokesman on health, there seemed to be at least two health debates a week. I was thrown in at ...
Members:
Go on.
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
Order. Carry on, Mr Raffan.
Mr Raffan:
LD
A lot has happened since then, not least in the past few days—so that period is almost pre-history. We have come a long way since the Minister for Parliament...
Nicola Sturgeon:
SNP
Will the member give way?