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Chamber

Plenary, 28 Nov 2001

28 Nov 2001 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Community Care and Health (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Jamieson, Margaret Lab Kilmarnock and Loudoun Watch on SPTV
I record my congratulations to Malcolm Chisholm, Mary Mulligan and Hugh Henry on their appointments, and I look forward to working with them in the coming months. I also extend my good wishes to Susan Deacon. I am sure that she will play an important role for the Labour party on the back benches.

Before I begin, I declare an interest as a member of Unison, which has many members in the health and community care sector.

I add my thanks to Health and Community Care Committee members, to the committee clerks who worked hard to deal with the many submissions on the principles of this important bill, and to those who gave oral evidence to the committee. I must say that I am very disappointed that Scottish Care declined the opportunity to give evidence. That body is a key element in the partnership that will be required to deliver the care that is foreseen in the bill and its views would have been instructive. However, it would be quite wrong for any organisation that has had the opportunity to influence the bill at its earliest stage to criticise the outcomes from the margins. Partnership working requires all partners to play a full part in developing the process. Where better to do that than at the very start?

Partnership in building legislation is unique to the Scottish Parliament and, as such, is a particularly Scottish way of producing better legislation. It is on that partnership aspect of the bill that I want to concentrate. Sections 10 to 14 will enshrine in law, at the very heart of the act, the responsibility of the national health service and local authorities to work together effectively to deliver care services. That issue has been the cause of much heart-searching in the past as well as the cause of many disputes. The committee was disturbed that not enough had been done to ensure that flexible care arrangements were being developed. I draw the ministers' attention specifically to paragraphs 78, 79, 91, 92 and 95 of the committee's stage 1 report.

It is important that joint working can be developed flexibly and locally, but that must not be used as an excuse for delay and disagreement. Joint working also demands that resource transfer be open and clearly identifiable. There are few aspects of local government that have been more guilty of secrecy and, dare I say it, deception in some areas than resource transfer from the national health service to local government. That has been particularly obvious to those of us who have for many months sought to marry the GAE projections for social work funding with outturn spending to ensure that the needs of the most vulnerable people in society are being met from the funding that is made available for that specific group. It is therefore essential that all aspects of resource transfer and the methods of achieving it—such as pooled budgets—are clearly identifiable not just for accountants, but for ordinary Scots whose taxes pay for care.

That approach was called for in a previous Health and Community Care Committee report on the delivery of community care in Scotland, which stated:

"The Executive should take immediate steps to establish a simple and transparent guide to the funding of community care services, accessible to all stakeholders."

That approach would make it much easier to move towards another recommendation, which is made in paragraph 145 of the same report. That paragraph states:

"A single body should be given the role of budget holding, planning and commissioning of community care services."

The Health and Community Care Committee has returned to that view in reviewing the principles behind the bill. There is no reason to modify our stance on that approach. I urge the minister to consider the implications and benefits of such an approach as he takes the bill forward.

We must involve all stakeholders including the NHS, local authorities, the private sector, the voluntary sector, carers, clients and—equally important—the staff who deliver care. Providers must not compete with each other to provide the cheapest care. In the past, that has led to weakening of the quality of services in some areas, which is the very reason that the Regulation of Care (Scotland) Act 2001 was passed.

I have no hesitation in recommending that the Executive support a national pay and conditions scheme for all those who are involved in joint working. That scheme should involve all stakeholders in order to produce an effective national package. It should also be flexible enough to respond to local needs and circumstances. Members have agreed in many debates in the chamber that staff are our most valuable asset. Staff are not looking for words—they are looking for action. I urge the minister to reconsider his earlier statement.

We have an obligation to ensure that real or perceived obstacles are removed so that we can provide the best service for communities. We are concerned that that might not be happening in the integrated human resource working group. The watchword must be partnership—partnership to produce care services that the people of Scotland deserve and that involves all players meaningfully.

I commend the principles of the bill to Parliament and look forward to the minister addressing partnership issues at stage 2.

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): NPA
Our next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-2247, in the name of Susan Deacon, on the general principles of the Community Care and Health (Scotland) ...
The Minister for Health and Community Care (Malcolm Chisholm): Lab
There have been many significant developments in community care in this Parliament's lifetime, and the Community Care and Health (Scotland) Bill marks a furt...
Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP): SNP
I welcome the new minister to his post and wish him well in the job. I congratulate the two new deputy health ministers, although it is perhaps appropriate t...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): Con
Does the member recognise that all 19 Conservatives voted in favour of free personal care? Will she endorse that fact?
Nicola Sturgeon: SNP
I accept that, but it was the 19 years that preceded those 19 votes that led to me to make that judgment about the Conservative party. The real threat to fre...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con): Con
I congratulate the new minister. That he has gone from being a member of the Health and Community Care Committee and back-bench rebel to Minister for Health ...
Malcolm Chisholm: Lab
I want to point out that that was not correctly transcribed because, if members think about it, what I said was that free personal care could be regarded as ...
Mary Scanlon: Con
My quote came from the Official Report.Page 67 of the Sutherland report states that personal care"falls within the internationally recognised definition of n...
Malcolm Chisholm: Lab
I am sure that the member will accept that clinics are hardly an institutional setting. Does she accept that not only the number of visits but their length a...
Mary Scanlon: Con
I welcome the minister's point about increases in funding, but as I think all members of the Health and Community Care Committee have said, we are looking fo...
Mrs Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD): LD
I welcome Malcolm Chisholm to his new job as Minister for Health and Community Care. As Nicola Sturgeon said, that is one of the most difficult jobs in Gover...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): SNP
We move now to open debate. Sir David announced that time would be tight, but some speakers have dropped out since then, so I shall allow up to five minutes ...
Margaret Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab): Lab
I record my congratulations to Malcolm Chisholm, Mary Mulligan and Hugh Henry on their appointments, and I look forward to working with them in the coming mo...
Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP): SNP
I congratulate Malcolm Chisholm on his appointment. We have known each other for a long time in different roles and I am sure that he will bring to the job h...
Janis Hughes (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab): Lab
I echo the comments that have been made elsewhere in the chamber and offer my congratulations to Malcolm Chisholm and to the two new Deputy Ministers for Hea...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con): Con
When this matter was first debated, there was a consensus that the bill was an important piece of legislation. It is a sad fact that none of us is getting an...
Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP): SNP
I do not know why Bill Aitken is so worried about blank cheques. He knows perfectly well that one has been issued to pay for the new Parliament. Anything tha...
Nora Radcliffe (Gordon) (LD): LD
I congratulate the new health team, wish them well in their work and pay tribute to Susan Deacon for her contribution as our first Minister for Health and Co...
Irene Oldfather (Cunninghame South) (Lab): Lab
I offer my congratulations to the new minister and his two deputies. I also extend my good wishes to Susan Deacon. As Margaret Smith said, two of the three m...
Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con): Con
I take part in the debate with great personal pleasure. That is partly because, as I am now on the wrong side of 50, I am keen to ensure that as much as poss...
Colin Campbell (West of Scotland) (SNP): SNP
I want to reiterate the point made anent the £20 million attendance allowances that are being held back by the UK Exchequer, to which the people of Scotland ...
Ben Wallace (North-East Scotland) (Con): Con
If Scotland was independent, will Mr Campbell tell us where he would find the £20 million? Whom would he tax to get the £20 million to provide free personal ...
Colin Campbell: SNP
We have already paid the money in tax to the United Kingdom Exchequer; it is sitting there as part of the totals that we have already paid in. Good try, Mr W...
The Deputy Presiding Officer: SNP
If members want their time to be extended, permission will gladly be given on this occasion.
Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): Lab
I add my congratulations to Malcolm Chisholm and his two new deputies. I wish them well in their new role. I pay tribute to the work of Susan Deacon, our for...
Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD): LD
I welcome the minister to his new post. When I first became a spokesman on health, there seemed to be at least two health debates a week. I was thrown in at ...
Members:
Go on.
The Deputy Presiding Officer: SNP
Order. Carry on, Mr Raffan.
Mr Raffan: LD
A lot has happened since then, not least in the past few days—so that period is almost pre-history. We have come a long way since the Minister for Parliament...
Nicola Sturgeon: SNP
Will the member give way?