Chamber
Plenary, 28 Nov 2001
28 Nov 2001 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Community Care and Health (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I congratulate the new minister. That he has gone from being a member of the Health and Community Care Committee and back-bench rebel to Minister for Health and Community Care is surely an endorsement of the democracy in the Parliament.
I also welcome Mary Mulligan and Hugh Henry. I hope that Hugh's attendance at health debates will be more frequent than his attendance at the Health and Community Care Committee. I also congratulate Richard Simpson, for whom I have a tremendous respect. That he has been given a remit on drugs and prisons is first class. As Nicola has already said, we extend our best wishes to Susan Deacon. I hope that Susan will join us on the Health and Community Care Committee because she would be a great asset—it would be fun.
I welcome the tone of the minister's speech. He accepted many of the points that the Health and Community Care Committee made. In the spirit of unity that Nicola Sturgeon mentioned we will support the motion in the name of Susan Deacon, not the SNP amendment. The points in the amendment have already been clearly made by the cross-party Health and Community Care Committee. The minister has already accepted one of those points and I know that the other is on-going. It is not necessary for the SNP to hijack the strongly stated recommendations of the cross-party committee.
We agree with what the new First Minister said last week—that it is better to do less, better. I am pleased to hear that he is reviewing health services. We can certainly confirm that considerable anger lies at the root of the change that is needed.
In June 1999, along with the other 10 members of the Health and Community Care Committee, I listed the main health priorities, so it is with much pleasure that I now stand to support the Community Care and Health (Scotland) Bill at stage 1. Given the fact that care in the community was highlighted as the major issue for committee members two and a half years ago, it is crucial that we get the bill right now. We need to address all the problems that have been highlighted in the oral and written evidence that the committee received and in the visits that it undertook, as well as in all the individual cases that are brought to us as MSPs.
We fully accept the principle that we need to end the discrimination whereby payment must be made for care for the frail and elderly yet NHS treatment is free for other conditions. It is only right that people pay the costs of accommodation including food and laundry because those costs would be incurred at home.
Our support for free personal care was based on the recommendations of the Sutherland report and the calculations that were made by the then Minister for Finance and Local Government, the care development group and the Department for Work and Pensions. None of those indicated the underestimation that we heard about at the end of last week. Our party did not sign a blank cheque when we backed the policy. Like other parties in the Parliament, we identified the accounting procedures and the calculations that were made at the time by well-respected bodies.
The definition of personal care has been endlessly discussed. I welcome the minister's announcement that the definition will be included in the bill. However, although the definition of personal care as endorsed by the care development group is now clear, the terms "social care" and "nursing care" are not quite so clear.
In fact, when he was Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care, the minister replied to my query by stating to the committee:
"there is a continuum between personal care and nursing care. There is an argument for collapsing the two into each other, because in going for free nursing care we are following a sort of international definition of nursing."—[Official Report, Health and Community Care Committee, 7 November 2001; c 2177.]
I also welcome Mary Mulligan and Hugh Henry. I hope that Hugh's attendance at health debates will be more frequent than his attendance at the Health and Community Care Committee. I also congratulate Richard Simpson, for whom I have a tremendous respect. That he has been given a remit on drugs and prisons is first class. As Nicola has already said, we extend our best wishes to Susan Deacon. I hope that Susan will join us on the Health and Community Care Committee because she would be a great asset—it would be fun.
I welcome the tone of the minister's speech. He accepted many of the points that the Health and Community Care Committee made. In the spirit of unity that Nicola Sturgeon mentioned we will support the motion in the name of Susan Deacon, not the SNP amendment. The points in the amendment have already been clearly made by the cross-party Health and Community Care Committee. The minister has already accepted one of those points and I know that the other is on-going. It is not necessary for the SNP to hijack the strongly stated recommendations of the cross-party committee.
We agree with what the new First Minister said last week—that it is better to do less, better. I am pleased to hear that he is reviewing health services. We can certainly confirm that considerable anger lies at the root of the change that is needed.
In June 1999, along with the other 10 members of the Health and Community Care Committee, I listed the main health priorities, so it is with much pleasure that I now stand to support the Community Care and Health (Scotland) Bill at stage 1. Given the fact that care in the community was highlighted as the major issue for committee members two and a half years ago, it is crucial that we get the bill right now. We need to address all the problems that have been highlighted in the oral and written evidence that the committee received and in the visits that it undertook, as well as in all the individual cases that are brought to us as MSPs.
We fully accept the principle that we need to end the discrimination whereby payment must be made for care for the frail and elderly yet NHS treatment is free for other conditions. It is only right that people pay the costs of accommodation including food and laundry because those costs would be incurred at home.
Our support for free personal care was based on the recommendations of the Sutherland report and the calculations that were made by the then Minister for Finance and Local Government, the care development group and the Department for Work and Pensions. None of those indicated the underestimation that we heard about at the end of last week. Our party did not sign a blank cheque when we backed the policy. Like other parties in the Parliament, we identified the accounting procedures and the calculations that were made at the time by well-respected bodies.
The definition of personal care has been endlessly discussed. I welcome the minister's announcement that the definition will be included in the bill. However, although the definition of personal care as endorsed by the care development group is now clear, the terms "social care" and "nursing care" are not quite so clear.
In fact, when he was Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care, the minister replied to my query by stating to the committee:
"there is a continuum between personal care and nursing care. There is an argument for collapsing the two into each other, because in going for free nursing care we are following a sort of international definition of nursing."—[Official Report, Health and Community Care Committee, 7 November 2001; c 2177.]
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel):
NPA
Our next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-2247, in the name of Susan Deacon, on the general principles of the Community Care and Health (Scotland) ...
The Minister for Health and Community Care (Malcolm Chisholm):
Lab
There have been many significant developments in community care in this Parliament's lifetime, and the Community Care and Health (Scotland) Bill marks a furt...
Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
I welcome the new minister to his post and wish him well in the job. I congratulate the two new deputy health ministers, although it is perhaps appropriate t...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
Does the member recognise that all 19 Conservatives voted in favour of free personal care? Will she endorse that fact?
Nicola Sturgeon:
SNP
I accept that, but it was the 19 years that preceded those 19 votes that led to me to make that judgment about the Conservative party. The real threat to fre...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
I congratulate the new minister. That he has gone from being a member of the Health and Community Care Committee and back-bench rebel to Minister for Health ...
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
I want to point out that that was not correctly transcribed because, if members think about it, what I said was that free personal care could be regarded as ...
Mary Scanlon:
Con
My quote came from the Official Report.Page 67 of the Sutherland report states that personal care"falls within the internationally recognised definition of n...
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
I am sure that the member will accept that clinics are hardly an institutional setting. Does she accept that not only the number of visits but their length a...
Mary Scanlon:
Con
I welcome the minister's point about increases in funding, but as I think all members of the Health and Community Care Committee have said, we are looking fo...
Mrs Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD):
LD
I welcome Malcolm Chisholm to his new job as Minister for Health and Community Care. As Nicola Sturgeon said, that is one of the most difficult jobs in Gover...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
SNP
We move now to open debate. Sir David announced that time would be tight, but some speakers have dropped out since then, so I shall allow up to five minutes ...
Margaret Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab):
Lab
I record my congratulations to Malcolm Chisholm, Mary Mulligan and Hugh Henry on their appointments, and I look forward to working with them in the coming mo...
Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
I congratulate Malcolm Chisholm on his appointment. We have known each other for a long time in different roles and I am sure that he will bring to the job h...
Janis Hughes (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab):
Lab
I echo the comments that have been made elsewhere in the chamber and offer my congratulations to Malcolm Chisholm and to the two new Deputy Ministers for Hea...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
When this matter was first debated, there was a consensus that the bill was an important piece of legislation. It is a sad fact that none of us is getting an...
Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
I do not know why Bill Aitken is so worried about blank cheques. He knows perfectly well that one has been issued to pay for the new Parliament. Anything tha...
Nora Radcliffe (Gordon) (LD):
LD
I congratulate the new health team, wish them well in their work and pay tribute to Susan Deacon for her contribution as our first Minister for Health and Co...
Irene Oldfather (Cunninghame South) (Lab):
Lab
I offer my congratulations to the new minister and his two deputies. I also extend my good wishes to Susan Deacon. As Margaret Smith said, two of the three m...
Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
I take part in the debate with great personal pleasure. That is partly because, as I am now on the wrong side of 50, I am keen to ensure that as much as poss...
Colin Campbell (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I want to reiterate the point made anent the £20 million attendance allowances that are being held back by the UK Exchequer, to which the people of Scotland ...
Ben Wallace (North-East Scotland) (Con):
Con
If Scotland was independent, will Mr Campbell tell us where he would find the £20 million? Whom would he tax to get the £20 million to provide free personal ...
Colin Campbell:
SNP
We have already paid the money in tax to the United Kingdom Exchequer; it is sitting there as part of the totals that we have already paid in. Good try, Mr W...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
If members want their time to be extended, permission will gladly be given on this occasion.
Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab):
Lab
I add my congratulations to Malcolm Chisholm and his two new deputies. I wish them well in their new role. I pay tribute to the work of Susan Deacon, our for...
Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD):
LD
I welcome the minister to his new post. When I first became a spokesman on health, there seemed to be at least two health debates a week. I was thrown in at ...
Members:
Go on.
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
Order. Carry on, Mr Raffan.
Mr Raffan:
LD
A lot has happened since then, not least in the past few days—so that period is almost pre-history. We have come a long way since the Minister for Parliament...
Nicola Sturgeon:
SNP
Will the member give way?