Chamber
Plenary, 27 Jun 2001
27 Jun 2001 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Serious Violent and Sexual Offenders
The Executive should be congratulated on bringing forward the white paper in line with the commitment in the programme for government and on accepting all the main recommendations in the MacLean report.
As the minister said, serious violent and sexual offenders are a small but very high-risk group of offenders. They pose a risk to public safety and that risk must be assessed and managed. However, it is important that the public debate on this issue is not conducted with an underlying hang-them-and-flog-them mentality. Individual human and civil rights must be considered. A careful balance must be struck between the rights of individuals and those of the community.
The issue must be approached with the premise that ensuring public safety and providing protection to our communities are paramount. On the whole, the MacLean report takes that approach. If we do not protect our communities, we run the risk that individuals will become involved in vigilante action. Although such action may stem from real concerns, individuals cannot take on the responsibility for community protection. The law and public agencies have the legitimate responsibility for community safety, although they must work with communities to discharge that responsibility in appropriate and effective ways.
To put the white paper into perspective, it is helpful to reflect on the role of custodial sentences. First, there is the punishment role—society and victims expect retribution for crimes. The second role is community safety—the perpetrator must be removed from society so as not to pose further risk to others. The third role is rehabilitation—the offender can reflect on their actions and assistance can be provided to allow them to return to the community. That must be dependent on an assessment of the offender's attitude to the crime and the extent to which they take responsibility for it and feel genuine remorse. The report's recommendations on risk management assessment will greatly assist in decisions about whether someone can be safely rehabilitated, without further risk to the public.
I welcome most of the recommendations, but I want to focus on specific issues in more detail. In paragraph 21 of chapter 2, the white paper states that
"unproven allegations of criminal behaviour will be taken into account, as will the fact that the offender had been prosecuted for and acquitted of offences in the past".
I am concerned about that, as our legal system is based on the principle that a person is innocent until proven guilty. I hope that, when the minister sums up, he will tell us why that is necessary and whether it conflicts with the underlying principles of our justice system. Is it a vital part of risk assessment and management? Will it contravene human rights conventions at United Nations or European level?
Like Dr Simpson, I am concerned about the approach to those with mental disorders. I am uncomfortable with the fact that mental illness, learning disability and personality disorders are put together in the term "mental disorder". However, I note that the Executive says that it is not insensitive to the different needs of those different groups. I would like to hear from the minister what further action is to be taken to treat those groups differently.
Like Gordon Jackson, I expect that some of the proposals will have funding implications for the health service and the Scottish Prison Service. Will the minister indicate whether that has been recognised?
I caution that being tough on crime and its causes should not mean putting people in prison and keeping them there merely to appease the public. However, if offenders are judged to pose a risk, they must be detained for life if that is appropriate. We all know of horrendous cases in which, after being released, someone committed a similar heinous crime, that has brought suffering and misery to more families and communities.
Overall, the white paper is to be welcomed for its aim of providing public protection. I would be grateful for a response from the minister to the points that I have raised.
As the minister said, serious violent and sexual offenders are a small but very high-risk group of offenders. They pose a risk to public safety and that risk must be assessed and managed. However, it is important that the public debate on this issue is not conducted with an underlying hang-them-and-flog-them mentality. Individual human and civil rights must be considered. A careful balance must be struck between the rights of individuals and those of the community.
The issue must be approached with the premise that ensuring public safety and providing protection to our communities are paramount. On the whole, the MacLean report takes that approach. If we do not protect our communities, we run the risk that individuals will become involved in vigilante action. Although such action may stem from real concerns, individuals cannot take on the responsibility for community protection. The law and public agencies have the legitimate responsibility for community safety, although they must work with communities to discharge that responsibility in appropriate and effective ways.
To put the white paper into perspective, it is helpful to reflect on the role of custodial sentences. First, there is the punishment role—society and victims expect retribution for crimes. The second role is community safety—the perpetrator must be removed from society so as not to pose further risk to others. The third role is rehabilitation—the offender can reflect on their actions and assistance can be provided to allow them to return to the community. That must be dependent on an assessment of the offender's attitude to the crime and the extent to which they take responsibility for it and feel genuine remorse. The report's recommendations on risk management assessment will greatly assist in decisions about whether someone can be safely rehabilitated, without further risk to the public.
I welcome most of the recommendations, but I want to focus on specific issues in more detail. In paragraph 21 of chapter 2, the white paper states that
"unproven allegations of criminal behaviour will be taken into account, as will the fact that the offender had been prosecuted for and acquitted of offences in the past".
I am concerned about that, as our legal system is based on the principle that a person is innocent until proven guilty. I hope that, when the minister sums up, he will tell us why that is necessary and whether it conflicts with the underlying principles of our justice system. Is it a vital part of risk assessment and management? Will it contravene human rights conventions at United Nations or European level?
Like Dr Simpson, I am concerned about the approach to those with mental disorders. I am uncomfortable with the fact that mental illness, learning disability and personality disorders are put together in the term "mental disorder". However, I note that the Executive says that it is not insensitive to the different needs of those different groups. I would like to hear from the minister what further action is to be taken to treat those groups differently.
Like Gordon Jackson, I expect that some of the proposals will have funding implications for the health service and the Scottish Prison Service. Will the minister indicate whether that has been recognised?
I caution that being tough on crime and its causes should not mean putting people in prison and keeping them there merely to appease the public. However, if offenders are judged to pose a risk, they must be detained for life if that is appropriate. We all know of horrendous cases in which, after being released, someone committed a similar heinous crime, that has brought suffering and misery to more families and communities.
Overall, the white paper is to be welcomed for its aim of providing public protection. I would be grateful for a response from the minister to the points that I have raised.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel):
NPA
The next item of business is the debate on motion S1M-2041, in the name of Mr Jim Wallace, on serious violent and sexual offenders, and an amendment to that ...
The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace):
LD
I am pleased to move the motion today. First, it confirms that we have delivered on all of our programme for government commitment to"review the law by 2001 ...
Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
When reading this white paper, we have no choice but to go along with the stated aim of the minister: to make Scotland a safer place to live in. That is the ...
Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
LD
Will Phil Gallie give way?
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson):
Lab
The member is about to wind up.
Phil Gallie:
Con
I am sorry. I would have liked to take an intervention from Mike Rumbles.I have a number of other queries. One relates to the time that it may take to make a...
Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP):
SNP
As the lack of an SNP amendment to the motion suggests, I have no hesitation in welcoming the publication of the white paper on serious violent and sexual of...
Gordon Jackson (Glasgow Govan) (Lab):
Lab
It will come as no surprise to members to learn that I, too, welcome unreservedly the contents of the white paper. I have also been pleased to hear a degree ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
No.
Gordon Jackson:
Lab
I am very sorry, but I thought I got a wee look.I always like to add a wee "but" just for the sake of it—old habits die hard. The white paper is a start, but...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
For Mr Jackson's information, he will know when I am winding him up.
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab):
Lab
The debate has always been emotive and controversial. It concerns the most difficult offenders in our society. The debate is about creating safe communities....
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con):
Con
Although the number of members in the chamber is somewhat depleted, there have been some extremely good speeches. Pauline McNeill was right to stress the imp...
Kay Ullrich (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
As many members know, in a previous existence, I spent many years working with victims of violent and sexual offending and with perpetrators of those awful c...
Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD):
LD
I would like to focus on one aspect of the excellent white paper. The paper tries to fulfil the recommendations of the MacLean committee and, on the technica...
Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab):
Lab
I commend the Executive for the process so far of developing a modern approach to the difficult issue of serious violent and sexual offenders.The Minister fo...
Mr Gil Paterson (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Like many members, I very much welcome the recommendations in the MacLean report and I thank the Executive for accepting them. The MacLean report will ensure...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
Sentencing is always a difficult issue, particularly when the crimes for which a sentence is being imposed are especially serious and sometimes horrific. The...
Roseanna Cunningham:
SNP
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I realise that this is a matter of convention, but does the fact that the Executive front benches are entirely empty ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
SNP
It is not for me to comment. It is a convention for ministers normally to be present during a debate and I am sure that civil servants or Government whips wi...
Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab):
Lab
The Executive should be congratulated on bringing forward the white paper in line with the commitment in the programme for government and on accepting all th...
Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP):
SNP
Like Kay Ullrich, I bring personal experience to the debate, as I am a former psychiatric nurse who worked in a locked ward. I was 17 years old at the time; ...
Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD):
LD
In this debate, we have seen the Scottish Parliament at its best. There is a kind of seminar atmosphere about the proceedings. I mean that in the highest sen...
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
The SNP welcomes these progressive proposals. We all hope that, once they are fleshed out, they will facilitate a balance between the release of those who ha...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
We are falling slightly short of time. I may have to suspend business for two or three minutes before 5 o'clock. We shall see.
Mrs Lyndsay McIntosh (Central Scotland) (Con):
Con
I am mindful of your concern about the timing, Presiding Officer, and I will try to as brief as I can.
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
The problem with the time is the other way round.
Mrs McIntosh:
Con
People have other places to go. I will not keep them any longer than I have to.We broadly accept the MacLean report findings and recommendations and we welco...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
Iain Gray will wind up for the Scottish Executive.You have 14 minutes, minister. If you just want to take your allotted 10 minutes, I will stop for three min...
The Deputy Minister for Justice (Iain Gray):
Lab
I am glad to have the opportunity today to discuss another aspect of the Scottish Executive's work that is aimed at protecting our communities. Managing the ...