Chamber
Plenary, 27 Jun 2001
27 Jun 2001 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Serious Violent and Sexual Offenders
I am very sorry, but I thought I got a wee look.
I always like to add a wee "but" just for the sake of it—old habits die hard. The white paper is a start, but I await the details from the Executive such as the statutory criteria for the making of lifelong orders. When we get to the small print, we will have some interesting debates.
I am conscious that we will need resources—I have no doubt that they are available—to set up the risk management authority and for the formal risk assessment, but resources will be needed for other things. MacLean and the white paper say that there will be more use of mental health disposals and that the hospital direction is to be used for those for whom it is appropriate. That will cost money.
On page 33 of the white paper, I read not only the idea of locking people up in Carstairs and jail, but the principles that mentally disordered offenders should be cared for
"As far as possible in the community rather than in institutional settings; … Under conditions of no greater security than is justified; … In such a way as to maximise rehabilitation; and … As near as possible to their own homes".
Those are excellent values; I like them all, but I am under no illusions. They will cost money. It is to be hoped—I have no reason to doubt it—that we will be able to put all those values into day-to-day practice.
We need a joined-up system—and not just in this area. One of the great things about the MacLean report is that it deals with the need for joined-up systems for assessment. The risk management authority is an example of that, but I sometimes think that we need joined-up justice in a broader sense. As I have said, that will cost money. I will not dwell on slopping out, but dealing with that will cost money. The drugs courts and the programme of drugs rehabilitation will cost money. Then we have my personal bee in the bonnet, which is that we have far too many people in jail. We should consider more imaginative ways of dealing with some people who are in jail. We cannot separate those issues. Someone may say, "What has the way in which we deal with so-called trivial offenders to do with today's debate?" It has to do with a joined-up strategic approach to the justice system.
MacLean says at one point that different problems need different solutions. That is right. We need to work out how we will spend our money on the sort of matters that are in the white paper. At the same time, we need to work out where that money will come from. We can save money by changing some of the things that we do with minor offenders.
This is a great start. If we keep the white paper as part of a strategic analysis of joined-up government, it will be excellent. I have no hesitation in commending it to the chamber.
I always like to add a wee "but" just for the sake of it—old habits die hard. The white paper is a start, but I await the details from the Executive such as the statutory criteria for the making of lifelong orders. When we get to the small print, we will have some interesting debates.
I am conscious that we will need resources—I have no doubt that they are available—to set up the risk management authority and for the formal risk assessment, but resources will be needed for other things. MacLean and the white paper say that there will be more use of mental health disposals and that the hospital direction is to be used for those for whom it is appropriate. That will cost money.
On page 33 of the white paper, I read not only the idea of locking people up in Carstairs and jail, but the principles that mentally disordered offenders should be cared for
"As far as possible in the community rather than in institutional settings; … Under conditions of no greater security than is justified; … In such a way as to maximise rehabilitation; and … As near as possible to their own homes".
Those are excellent values; I like them all, but I am under no illusions. They will cost money. It is to be hoped—I have no reason to doubt it—that we will be able to put all those values into day-to-day practice.
We need a joined-up system—and not just in this area. One of the great things about the MacLean report is that it deals with the need for joined-up systems for assessment. The risk management authority is an example of that, but I sometimes think that we need joined-up justice in a broader sense. As I have said, that will cost money. I will not dwell on slopping out, but dealing with that will cost money. The drugs courts and the programme of drugs rehabilitation will cost money. Then we have my personal bee in the bonnet, which is that we have far too many people in jail. We should consider more imaginative ways of dealing with some people who are in jail. We cannot separate those issues. Someone may say, "What has the way in which we deal with so-called trivial offenders to do with today's debate?" It has to do with a joined-up strategic approach to the justice system.
MacLean says at one point that different problems need different solutions. That is right. We need to work out how we will spend our money on the sort of matters that are in the white paper. At the same time, we need to work out where that money will come from. We can save money by changing some of the things that we do with minor offenders.
This is a great start. If we keep the white paper as part of a strategic analysis of joined-up government, it will be excellent. I have no hesitation in commending it to the chamber.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel):
NPA
The next item of business is the debate on motion S1M-2041, in the name of Mr Jim Wallace, on serious violent and sexual offenders, and an amendment to that ...
The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace):
LD
I am pleased to move the motion today. First, it confirms that we have delivered on all of our programme for government commitment to"review the law by 2001 ...
Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
When reading this white paper, we have no choice but to go along with the stated aim of the minister: to make Scotland a safer place to live in. That is the ...
Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
LD
Will Phil Gallie give way?
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson):
Lab
The member is about to wind up.
Phil Gallie:
Con
I am sorry. I would have liked to take an intervention from Mike Rumbles.I have a number of other queries. One relates to the time that it may take to make a...
Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP):
SNP
As the lack of an SNP amendment to the motion suggests, I have no hesitation in welcoming the publication of the white paper on serious violent and sexual of...
Gordon Jackson (Glasgow Govan) (Lab):
Lab
It will come as no surprise to members to learn that I, too, welcome unreservedly the contents of the white paper. I have also been pleased to hear a degree ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
No.
Gordon Jackson:
Lab
I am very sorry, but I thought I got a wee look.I always like to add a wee "but" just for the sake of it—old habits die hard. The white paper is a start, but...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
For Mr Jackson's information, he will know when I am winding him up.
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab):
Lab
The debate has always been emotive and controversial. It concerns the most difficult offenders in our society. The debate is about creating safe communities....
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con):
Con
Although the number of members in the chamber is somewhat depleted, there have been some extremely good speeches. Pauline McNeill was right to stress the imp...
Kay Ullrich (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
As many members know, in a previous existence, I spent many years working with victims of violent and sexual offending and with perpetrators of those awful c...
Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD):
LD
I would like to focus on one aspect of the excellent white paper. The paper tries to fulfil the recommendations of the MacLean committee and, on the technica...
Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab):
Lab
I commend the Executive for the process so far of developing a modern approach to the difficult issue of serious violent and sexual offenders.The Minister fo...
Mr Gil Paterson (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Like many members, I very much welcome the recommendations in the MacLean report and I thank the Executive for accepting them. The MacLean report will ensure...
Bill Aitken (Glasgow) (Con):
Con
Sentencing is always a difficult issue, particularly when the crimes for which a sentence is being imposed are especially serious and sometimes horrific. The...
Roseanna Cunningham:
SNP
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I realise that this is a matter of convention, but does the fact that the Executive front benches are entirely empty ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
SNP
It is not for me to comment. It is a convention for ministers normally to be present during a debate and I am sure that civil servants or Government whips wi...
Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab):
Lab
The Executive should be congratulated on bringing forward the white paper in line with the commitment in the programme for government and on accepting all th...
Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP):
SNP
Like Kay Ullrich, I bring personal experience to the debate, as I am a former psychiatric nurse who worked in a locked ward. I was 17 years old at the time; ...
Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD):
LD
In this debate, we have seen the Scottish Parliament at its best. There is a kind of seminar atmosphere about the proceedings. I mean that in the highest sen...
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
The SNP welcomes these progressive proposals. We all hope that, once they are fleshed out, they will facilitate a balance between the release of those who ha...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
We are falling slightly short of time. I may have to suspend business for two or three minutes before 5 o'clock. We shall see.
Mrs Lyndsay McIntosh (Central Scotland) (Con):
Con
I am mindful of your concern about the timing, Presiding Officer, and I will try to as brief as I can.
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
The problem with the time is the other way round.
Mrs McIntosh:
Con
People have other places to go. I will not keep them any longer than I have to.We broadly accept the MacLean report findings and recommendations and we welco...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
Iain Gray will wind up for the Scottish Executive.You have 14 minutes, minister. If you just want to take your allotted 10 minutes, I will stop for three min...
The Deputy Minister for Justice (Iain Gray):
Lab
I am glad to have the opportunity today to discuss another aspect of the Scottish Executive's work that is aimed at protecting our communities. Managing the ...