Chamber
Plenary, 14 Feb 2001
14 Feb 2001 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Community Care
I want to move on.
When Stewart Sutherland was asked by Malcolm Chisholm in the Health and Community Care Committee whether he envisaged any difficulties in implementing the definition of personal care, Sutherland replied:
"If I were in charge of the money, and had a mean mind, I would say that expenditure could be reduced by defining down personal care, and eliminating certain things."
In response to Malcolm Chisholm, Sir Stewart went on to say:
"The haggling that will go on will be over how personal care is defined."—[Official Report, Health and Community Care Committee, 31 May 2000; c 961.]
How right he was, because that is the position in which we find ourselves.
When the committee discussed personal care, it was always the issue of personal care according to Sutherland, as it was the only definition that members knew. It was not the haggled-down, narrowed definition that Susan Deacon might give us in nine months' time. When the First Minister replied in relation to this issue, he said:
"If it quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck—it's a duck."
If we must relate personal care to ducks, will the minister assure us that we are talking about the Sutherland duck, not the Deacon duck? Furthermore, I ask him to stop ducking this very serious issue. Although Jim Wallace might consider that to be a very silly semantic point, it represents the life and soul of dignity and respect in old age. That said, I welcome the Executive's commitment on our recommendations 10 and 25 which relate to a single funding stream and budget-holding body.
I want to raise the issue of bedblocking that both Kay Ullrich and I have mentioned so many times in the past two years. Last week, 18 of the 24 female patients in the medical assessment ward of the Royal Victoria hospital in Dundee were waiting to be placed in residential wards and in home care, which means that 75 per cent of the beds in the ward were blocked, with the patients receiving inappropriate care. That is why we are so passionate about this issue, and why we will keep raising it over the Parliament's next two years.
I also seek further assurances on our 13th recommendation. The committee found that it was difficult to audit-trail the community care pound, and I ask the minister for a simpler and more transparent guide to the funding of community care services. The Conservatives support the Health and Community Care Committee's motion. I am very sorry that the Executive found it necessary to lodge its despicable amendment, which we will not support.
When Stewart Sutherland was asked by Malcolm Chisholm in the Health and Community Care Committee whether he envisaged any difficulties in implementing the definition of personal care, Sutherland replied:
"If I were in charge of the money, and had a mean mind, I would say that expenditure could be reduced by defining down personal care, and eliminating certain things."
In response to Malcolm Chisholm, Sir Stewart went on to say:
"The haggling that will go on will be over how personal care is defined."—[Official Report, Health and Community Care Committee, 31 May 2000; c 961.]
How right he was, because that is the position in which we find ourselves.
When the committee discussed personal care, it was always the issue of personal care according to Sutherland, as it was the only definition that members knew. It was not the haggled-down, narrowed definition that Susan Deacon might give us in nine months' time. When the First Minister replied in relation to this issue, he said:
"If it quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck—it's a duck."
If we must relate personal care to ducks, will the minister assure us that we are talking about the Sutherland duck, not the Deacon duck? Furthermore, I ask him to stop ducking this very serious issue. Although Jim Wallace might consider that to be a very silly semantic point, it represents the life and soul of dignity and respect in old age. That said, I welcome the Executive's commitment on our recommendations 10 and 25 which relate to a single funding stream and budget-holding body.
I want to raise the issue of bedblocking that both Kay Ullrich and I have mentioned so many times in the past two years. Last week, 18 of the 24 female patients in the medical assessment ward of the Royal Victoria hospital in Dundee were waiting to be placed in residential wards and in home care, which means that 75 per cent of the beds in the ward were blocked, with the patients receiving inappropriate care. That is why we are so passionate about this issue, and why we will keep raising it over the Parliament's next two years.
I also seek further assurances on our 13th recommendation. The committee found that it was difficult to audit-trail the community care pound, and I ask the minister for a simpler and more transparent guide to the funding of community care services. The Conservatives support the Health and Community Care Committee's motion. I am very sorry that the Executive found it necessary to lodge its despicable amendment, which we will not support.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel):
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-1639, in the name of Margaret Smith, on behalf of the Health and Community Care Committee, on the committ...
Mrs Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD):
LD
I am pleased—as convener of the Health and Community Care Committee—to lead on this debate on our report into community care. At various points during the pa...
The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care (Malcolm Chisholm):
Lab
Susan Deacon regrets that she cannot be present today; she is attending a meeting with UK ministers in London to discuss CJD-related issues. I am sure that a...
Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP):
SNP
The minister omitted to mention the part of the remit that says that part of the role of the care development group would be to provide a clear definition of...
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
We need to translate the principle of Sutherland—which we accept—into an applicable, understandable and doable system of charging and non-charging. That rela...
Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
LD
On that point, I understand that the Executive objects to the motion that is before us and has lodged an amendment simply on the grounds that the committee s...
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
Mike Rumbles should appreciate that the normal purpose of a motion on a committee report is that the Parliament notes it. This is the first time that the Exe...
Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
If we are to follow the logic of the minister's argument, will he tell us which aspects of the report's recommendations he does not agree with and does not i...
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
That is very much in the detail. For example, I could point to recommendation 44, which concerns the involvement of social work in the training of GPs in the...
Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
I start by welcoming the Health and Community Care Committee's report. As someone who joined the committee at a very late stage of this piece of work, I pay ...
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
I am genuinely mystified. I will try for the next hour to understand the basis of that argument. When I was asked whether I had any reservations about detail...
Nicola Sturgeon:
SNP
Welcoming it might be better than noting it, but it is still not quite as good as acting on it. The minister said that when he talked about things in the rep...
Malcolm Chisholm rose—
Lab
Nicola Sturgeon:
SNP
It talks about the emergency statement on 25 January, which dealt solely with personal care. The amendment again raises the possibility that the Executive's ...
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
Will the member give way?
Nicola Sturgeon:
SNP
Not just now, as I am summing up.The motion gives the Parliament the opportunity yet again to vote for what we all say we believe in. If the Executive means ...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
I thank Margaret Smith for proposing the Health and Community Care Committee report so competently. I also commend all the members and staff involved.I have ...
Malcolm Chisholm rose—
Lab
Mary Scanlon:
Con
I am just getting started.Apart from the ill-judged amendment, which only adds to the confusion over personal care for the elderly, I also find the Executive...
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
Surely Mary Scanlon realises that the Executive's amendment has nothing to do with free personal care. As I said in my speech, all the amendment does is poin...
Mary Scanlon:
Con
If that is the case, perhaps Malcolm Chisholm will clarify that point when he sums up.Why does the Executive have to refer to the care development group, whi...
Malcolm Chisholm rose—
Lab
Mary Scanlon:
Con
I want to move on.When Stewart Sutherland was asked by Malcolm Chisholm in the Health and Community Care Committee whether he envisaged any difficulties in i...
Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab):
Lab
The central issue of this debate is not just the Health and Community Care Committee's report, which is important and which has, along with the Sutherland re...
Ben Wallace (North-East Scotland) (Con):
Con
Will the member give way?
Des McNulty:
Lab
No, I am short of time.Many of the people who bore the impact of those policies were elderly people—our pensioners, who were neglected and disadvantaged by w...
Kay Ullrich (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
This report is a good example of the important work that is being undertaken by the committees in the Parliament. In addition to taking written submissions a...
Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab):
Lab
Will the member give way?
Kay Ullrich:
SNP
I do not have time.I will end with the issues that were paramount in all the submissions and, indeed, in all the visits. The first is the desire that the Sut...
Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
The contents of this excellent report show quite categorically that the well-being of our citizens and the health of our nation can come before party politic...