Chamber
Plenary, 02 Mar 2000
02 Mar 2000 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
European Convention on Human Rights
I am the first non-lawyer to speak. I do not get paid by the minute, so I will be brief.
As has been said, we support the Government's aim of protecting the rights of British citizens. Where we differ is in how we go about it. My colleagues will outline areas that have given us sufficient cause for concern to have initiated this morning's debate. I will concentrate on two areas that are of particular interest to me as a former justice of the peace and to my then colleagues.
Before coming to the Parliament, I served as a JP in North Lanarkshire. I took that honour seriously and such was my commitment that before local government reorganisation I was elected to my court area committee and thereafter to the North Lanarkshire justices committee. We formed a sub-committee to look at the on-going training needs of established and new justices, which I chaired. We had a good programme of training events for justices undergoing bench training, thanks in no small measure to the assistance of a first-class clerk of court. We were keen to maintain our high standard by organising training on new policing techniques and changes in the law.
We well knew then that the incorporation of the European convention on human rights would impinge on our practice even at the level of district courts. I strove to organise a series of training events, including a day on the theme of "Human Rights, Inhuman Wrongs"—a catchy title, I thought. Working on the trickle-down theory, we inquired about the training that was being undertaken by the Crown Office in anticipation of the change. The silence was deafening. Learning of that lack of preparation at the highest level, I feared the worst. Trouble loomed and we have not been disappointed—the warning was not heeded. Much of the bread-and-butter work of the district courts is in disarray. Some commentators might characterise events since the ECHR was incorporated as shambolic—I will not dwell on other descriptions.
The effect has been that 126 temporary sheriffs have been deemed illegal, thereby reducing the number of experienced sheriffs on whom those of us at the lower end of the scale can call for advice and input to training. Some 80 justices of the peace were removed from the court rota because they were ex officio, thereby increasing the difficulty of providing court cover in the district courts. Many good JPs have been cast aside—during my training, one of my supervisors was the SNP group leader in North Lanarkshire. Their removal puts pressure on the remaining JPs, none of whom does the work for the money, as the honour is unpaid.
I understand that in Edinburgh on Saturday the Minister for Justice addressed the District Courts Association conference on human rights. I am sorry that I missed his speech, but I had a surgery, and something that was happening in Ayr caught my attention as well.
Our motion calls for
"a statement on the Executive's state of preparedness for October".
I hope that that will be considerably better than the experience that I had in my former role. Perhaps the minister will be mindful of comments about statements being made in the public domain before being announced in Parliament and will tell us what he has in mind on reviewing the role of JP courts.
Briefly—I know that others will be interested in this—I want to cast our spotlight again on the children's hearing system. Recently I received a letter and explanatory booklet from the children's panel chairmen's group. I hope that the minister will address the concerns that have been expressed about the implications of the ECHR for that aspect of our highly respected and much envied system of dealing with juveniles. I look forward to hearing what he says.
As has been said, we support the Government's aim of protecting the rights of British citizens. Where we differ is in how we go about it. My colleagues will outline areas that have given us sufficient cause for concern to have initiated this morning's debate. I will concentrate on two areas that are of particular interest to me as a former justice of the peace and to my then colleagues.
Before coming to the Parliament, I served as a JP in North Lanarkshire. I took that honour seriously and such was my commitment that before local government reorganisation I was elected to my court area committee and thereafter to the North Lanarkshire justices committee. We formed a sub-committee to look at the on-going training needs of established and new justices, which I chaired. We had a good programme of training events for justices undergoing bench training, thanks in no small measure to the assistance of a first-class clerk of court. We were keen to maintain our high standard by organising training on new policing techniques and changes in the law.
We well knew then that the incorporation of the European convention on human rights would impinge on our practice even at the level of district courts. I strove to organise a series of training events, including a day on the theme of "Human Rights, Inhuman Wrongs"—a catchy title, I thought. Working on the trickle-down theory, we inquired about the training that was being undertaken by the Crown Office in anticipation of the change. The silence was deafening. Learning of that lack of preparation at the highest level, I feared the worst. Trouble loomed and we have not been disappointed—the warning was not heeded. Much of the bread-and-butter work of the district courts is in disarray. Some commentators might characterise events since the ECHR was incorporated as shambolic—I will not dwell on other descriptions.
The effect has been that 126 temporary sheriffs have been deemed illegal, thereby reducing the number of experienced sheriffs on whom those of us at the lower end of the scale can call for advice and input to training. Some 80 justices of the peace were removed from the court rota because they were ex officio, thereby increasing the difficulty of providing court cover in the district courts. Many good JPs have been cast aside—during my training, one of my supervisors was the SNP group leader in North Lanarkshire. Their removal puts pressure on the remaining JPs, none of whom does the work for the money, as the honour is unpaid.
I understand that in Edinburgh on Saturday the Minister for Justice addressed the District Courts Association conference on human rights. I am sorry that I missed his speech, but I had a surgery, and something that was happening in Ayr caught my attention as well.
Our motion calls for
"a statement on the Executive's state of preparedness for October".
I hope that that will be considerably better than the experience that I had in my former role. Perhaps the minister will be mindful of comments about statements being made in the public domain before being announced in Parliament and will tell us what he has in mind on reviewing the role of JP courts.
Briefly—I know that others will be interested in this—I want to cast our spotlight again on the children's hearing system. Recently I received a letter and explanatory booklet from the children's panel chairmen's group. I hope that the minister will address the concerns that have been expressed about the implications of the ECHR for that aspect of our highly respected and much envied system of dealing with juveniles. I look forward to hearing what he says.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
The first item of business is a Scottish Conservative and Unionist party debate on motion S1M-610, in the name of David McLetchie, on the European convention...
David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con):
Con
Thank you, Presiding Officer.At the outset of my speech, I wish to clarify what this debate is about and what we are seeking to achieve with our motion. It i...
Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD):
LD
Was not 1988 during the period of the Conservative Government, when that Government was responsible for ensuring that its legislation complied with ECHR?
David McLetchie:
Con
Robert Brown's history is correct, but I return to what I said at the outset—this debate is about mechanisms. Under the previous system, a challenge to secti...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab):
Lab
Will David McLetchie confirm that all he has outlined is a series of possible challenges and suggestions from academics that measures may be contrary to ECHR...
David McLetchie:
Con
Yes, I am prepared to accept those figures, but there could well be 340 specious charges. Lawyers are creative people when it comes to furthering the interes...
The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace):
LD
First, I welcome this debate and thank Mr McLetchie and his party for giving the Parliament an opportunity to discuss an important and topical issue. Human r...
David McLetchie:
Con
Will the minister accept that, in the legislation on the armed forces disciplinary code, Westminster is taking action in anticipation of the need to bring ou...
Mr Wallace:
LD
I am grateful to Mr McLetchie for that question, because this is a case not of either/or but of both/and. There will be occasions where it is important—for e...
Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP):
SNP
I would like to say at the outset that the Scottish National party starts from a position of unequivocally supporting the incorporation of the European conve...
David McLetchie:
Con
On the incorporation of ECHR, we opposed the Human Rights Act 1998 because the issue is the relationship between the convention and our domestic law. The cur...
Roseanna Cunningham:
SNP
I hear what Mr McLetchie is saying, but the Conservatives' tone is one of grudging acceptance of a situation which most of us have welcomed. I sometimes wish...
Mr Jim Wallace:
LD
I hear what Roseanna Cunningham is saying. However, she mentioned that civil cases include custody and access cases. Will she accept that sheriffs principal ...
Roseanna Cunningham:
SNP
I do not doubt that sheriffs principal are doing their very best, but it is clear from the figures that, in many jurisdictions, they are doing a juggling act...
Gordon Jackson (Glasgow Govan ) (Lab):
Lab
It is all very well to say that such a change should be anticipated, but what age would Roseanna Cunningham set to ensure that it conforms to ECHR? Surely we...
Roseanna Cunningham:
SNP
It is inevitable that Gordon Jackson would ask that question. The truth is that once we decide that eight years old is not acceptable, we need to start the p...
Gordon Jackson (Glasgow Govan) (Lab):
Lab
For five minutes, I was enjoying myself, listening to Roseanna Cunningham. I was agreeing with her, and I say to David McLetchie that I share her disappointm...
David McLetchie:
Con
In relation to the certification of compatibility of ministers, does Gordon Jackson believe that a one-line certificate of compliance is sufficient for this ...
Gordon Jackson:
Lab
I understand what Mr McLetchie means, but the difficulty with having the full legal advice analysed is that two lawyers will give two opinions, three lawyers...
Roseanna Cunningham:
SNP
Does Gordon Jackson think that, if the age of criminal responsibility was set at eight, it would survive a challenge?
Gordon Jackson:
Lab
My honest opinion is that it would not have a snowball's chance in summer of surviving a challenge. However, the fact that I do not think that the proposal t...
David McLetchie:
Con
Would Gordon Jackson accept that the previous legal relationship between this country and the convention resulted in changes to our law? I am making the poin...
Gordon Jackson:
Lab
Of course that is right. It means that things are done more quickly. That is, however, far outweighed by the advantage for the citizen in having a matter res...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
SNP
The debate is now open. Speeches should last about four minutes; I will allow an additional minute or so for interventions.
Mrs Lyndsay McIntosh (Central Scotland) (Con):
Con
I am the first non-lawyer to speak. I do not get paid by the minute, so I will be brief.As has been said, we support the Government's aim of protecting the r...
Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab):
Lab
I was fascinated to gain an insight into Roseanna Cunningham's surgeries—surgeries in rural Scotland are clearly very different from those in urban Scotland....
Mrs McIntosh:
Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Hugh Henry:
Lab
No, I am about to finish. I want to echo Jim Wallace's point that the promotion of a human rights culture in Scotland is fundamental. We must respect human r...
Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
For a fleeting moment during Gordon Jackson's speech, I was of the mind that the problem is not with the ECHR, but with lawyers. We might not be having today...
Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD):
LD
First, I must declare an interest in respect of my membership of the Law Society of Scotland, and my legal consultancy with Ross, Harper and Murphy—not least...