Chamber
Plenary, 02 Mar 2000
02 Mar 2000 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
European Convention on Human Rights
Thank you, Presiding Officer.
At the outset of my speech, I wish to clarify what this debate is about and what we are seeking to achieve with our motion. It is not about withdrawal from the European convention on human rights—it is about the legal relationship between ECHR and our system of law and institutions of government.
Of course we support the aim of protecting and promoting the human rights of United Kingdom citizens in line with internationally agreed standards. We are certainly not advocating that we should withdraw, as a signatory, from the European convention. After all, the UK was one of the 10 original signatories to the convention in 1950, and the convention has been binding on our nation since it came into full effect in 1953. Our accession to ECHR is not, and never has been, the issue. The convention has been supported by successive Labour and Conservative Governments during the past 50 years.
However, the Conservative party maintains that, before the Human Rights Act 1998 and the Scotland Act 1998 with its human rights provisions were passed, the way in which our domestic law related to ECHR was infinitely preferable to the situation today.
Under the old system—if I can call it that—British citizens could take cases to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg to obtain rulings based on the convention. A successful ruling that established that the UK was in breach of an article of the convention did not automatically overrule UK law. Instead, it was for the UK Government and Parliament to remedy the situation and to take steps to bring UK law into line with the terms of the ruling as an interpretation of the convention.
Over the years, a number of cases resulted in decisions being handed down by the European Court of Human Rights that have had a significant impact on our law, such as those on the closed shop, corporal punishment in schools, telephone tapping, sentencing policy and immigration.
Although the Human Rights Act 1998 does not, strictly speaking, incorporate the convention into domestic law, the act is the vehicle through which further effect will be given to the convention rights. That means that the rights that are referred to cannot be amended or repealed in future. This is not a question of courts being given the power to strike down legislation; what will happen is that ministers will have to state whether they believe that proposed legislation is compatible with convention rights and our courts may declare that part of a law is incompatible with a convention right.
In Scotland, sections 29(2) and 57(2) of the Scotland Act 1998 have already constrained this Parliament to act within the confines of the convention. We have been the guinea pigs on which the Government's theories about how best to protect human rights in the UK were tested. Sadly, the results so far are not encouraging, for which Her Majesty's Government must take responsibility—it seems to have had no idea of the consequences of its actions or the course that it was setting in train.
There have already been a number of damaging effects on our legal system in Scotland. For example, 126 temporary sheriffs have been sacrificed on the altar of the ECHR because, back in November, three appeal court judges ruled that those sheriffs were not independent as required by the convention. That was because they were appointed by the Lord Advocate, who is both a Government officer and the chief prosecutor in Scotland—something that was deemed to undermine the independence of judges appointed by him.
That was bound to have huge repercussions for our courts. Before the Human Rights Act 1998 and the Scotland Act 1998 came into effect, in the event of an adverse decision from Strasbourg on temporary sheriffs, there would have been time for a measured and considered response by Parliament and the Executive. Instead, this was a case of hitting the panic button and fishing out the CVs in the pending tray.
The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice has still to come up with a full solution to the problems that have been caused by that decision. He has had to appoint 10 more permanent sheriffs and I understand that a further six full-time posts have been advertised. That is a bit like sticking one's finger in the dyke after the dam has burst, reacting to events rather than being in charge of them, which is the hallmark of the Executive.
Our justice system has been thrown into chaos. The waiting period for cases coming to court in Perth has increased from 17 weeks to 22 weeks for criminal cases and from 10 weeks to 15 weeks for civil cases. In Stirling, things are even worse, with delays increasing from 11 weeks to 26 weeks for criminal cases and from 10 weeks to 21 weeks for civil cases. We must be able to challenge the whole system of judicial appointments in Scotland; our judges are appointed by the First Minister on the recommendation of the Lord Advocate, who is still the head of the prosecution service.
If press reports are to be believed—and we occasionally treat them with a degree of caution—the First Minister seems keen to preserve the status quo. However, the Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice has indicated his support for an independent commission to appoint judges, which is in line with the commitment made in his party's election manifesto. I would be interested to know whether that is a manifesto commitment that he intends to honour, or whether it is just another piece of Liberal election rhetoric. If yesterday's performance is anything to go by, perhaps two thirds of the Liberal Democrat parliamentary party will vote to keep Mr Wallace in a job, whatever that takes, a third will vote for what they believe in, and Keith Raffan will forget how to vote at all. As for the Conservatives, we believe that an independent commission would certainly be preferable to Lords Advocate being able to recommend their own promotion when the going gets a little tough.
The ECHR has recently had a significant effect on road traffic law. Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 compels the owner of a car, on pain of prosecution, to reveal who was driving the vehicle at the time of an offence. Although I acknowledge that the decision in question is currently under appeal, that provision of the act has so far been held to be in breach of the right to silence. Again, our legal system could be thrown into disarray, as an unsuccessful appeal will make it impossible to prosecute many motoring offences.
At a time when Her Majesty's Government and the Executive have just announced new road safety measures to curb irresponsible driving to reduce the toll of death and injury on our roads, it is bizarre to say the least that one of the legal weapons available to the police to uphold the law in that area should be under threat of ECHR decommissioning.
At the outset of my speech, I wish to clarify what this debate is about and what we are seeking to achieve with our motion. It is not about withdrawal from the European convention on human rights—it is about the legal relationship between ECHR and our system of law and institutions of government.
Of course we support the aim of protecting and promoting the human rights of United Kingdom citizens in line with internationally agreed standards. We are certainly not advocating that we should withdraw, as a signatory, from the European convention. After all, the UK was one of the 10 original signatories to the convention in 1950, and the convention has been binding on our nation since it came into full effect in 1953. Our accession to ECHR is not, and never has been, the issue. The convention has been supported by successive Labour and Conservative Governments during the past 50 years.
However, the Conservative party maintains that, before the Human Rights Act 1998 and the Scotland Act 1998 with its human rights provisions were passed, the way in which our domestic law related to ECHR was infinitely preferable to the situation today.
Under the old system—if I can call it that—British citizens could take cases to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg to obtain rulings based on the convention. A successful ruling that established that the UK was in breach of an article of the convention did not automatically overrule UK law. Instead, it was for the UK Government and Parliament to remedy the situation and to take steps to bring UK law into line with the terms of the ruling as an interpretation of the convention.
Over the years, a number of cases resulted in decisions being handed down by the European Court of Human Rights that have had a significant impact on our law, such as those on the closed shop, corporal punishment in schools, telephone tapping, sentencing policy and immigration.
Although the Human Rights Act 1998 does not, strictly speaking, incorporate the convention into domestic law, the act is the vehicle through which further effect will be given to the convention rights. That means that the rights that are referred to cannot be amended or repealed in future. This is not a question of courts being given the power to strike down legislation; what will happen is that ministers will have to state whether they believe that proposed legislation is compatible with convention rights and our courts may declare that part of a law is incompatible with a convention right.
In Scotland, sections 29(2) and 57(2) of the Scotland Act 1998 have already constrained this Parliament to act within the confines of the convention. We have been the guinea pigs on which the Government's theories about how best to protect human rights in the UK were tested. Sadly, the results so far are not encouraging, for which Her Majesty's Government must take responsibility—it seems to have had no idea of the consequences of its actions or the course that it was setting in train.
There have already been a number of damaging effects on our legal system in Scotland. For example, 126 temporary sheriffs have been sacrificed on the altar of the ECHR because, back in November, three appeal court judges ruled that those sheriffs were not independent as required by the convention. That was because they were appointed by the Lord Advocate, who is both a Government officer and the chief prosecutor in Scotland—something that was deemed to undermine the independence of judges appointed by him.
That was bound to have huge repercussions for our courts. Before the Human Rights Act 1998 and the Scotland Act 1998 came into effect, in the event of an adverse decision from Strasbourg on temporary sheriffs, there would have been time for a measured and considered response by Parliament and the Executive. Instead, this was a case of hitting the panic button and fishing out the CVs in the pending tray.
The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice has still to come up with a full solution to the problems that have been caused by that decision. He has had to appoint 10 more permanent sheriffs and I understand that a further six full-time posts have been advertised. That is a bit like sticking one's finger in the dyke after the dam has burst, reacting to events rather than being in charge of them, which is the hallmark of the Executive.
Our justice system has been thrown into chaos. The waiting period for cases coming to court in Perth has increased from 17 weeks to 22 weeks for criminal cases and from 10 weeks to 15 weeks for civil cases. In Stirling, things are even worse, with delays increasing from 11 weeks to 26 weeks for criminal cases and from 10 weeks to 21 weeks for civil cases. We must be able to challenge the whole system of judicial appointments in Scotland; our judges are appointed by the First Minister on the recommendation of the Lord Advocate, who is still the head of the prosecution service.
If press reports are to be believed—and we occasionally treat them with a degree of caution—the First Minister seems keen to preserve the status quo. However, the Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice has indicated his support for an independent commission to appoint judges, which is in line with the commitment made in his party's election manifesto. I would be interested to know whether that is a manifesto commitment that he intends to honour, or whether it is just another piece of Liberal election rhetoric. If yesterday's performance is anything to go by, perhaps two thirds of the Liberal Democrat parliamentary party will vote to keep Mr Wallace in a job, whatever that takes, a third will vote for what they believe in, and Keith Raffan will forget how to vote at all. As for the Conservatives, we believe that an independent commission would certainly be preferable to Lords Advocate being able to recommend their own promotion when the going gets a little tough.
The ECHR has recently had a significant effect on road traffic law. Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 compels the owner of a car, on pain of prosecution, to reveal who was driving the vehicle at the time of an offence. Although I acknowledge that the decision in question is currently under appeal, that provision of the act has so far been held to be in breach of the right to silence. Again, our legal system could be thrown into disarray, as an unsuccessful appeal will make it impossible to prosecute many motoring offences.
At a time when Her Majesty's Government and the Executive have just announced new road safety measures to curb irresponsible driving to reduce the toll of death and injury on our roads, it is bizarre to say the least that one of the legal weapons available to the police to uphold the law in that area should be under threat of ECHR decommissioning.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
The first item of business is a Scottish Conservative and Unionist party debate on motion S1M-610, in the name of David McLetchie, on the European convention...
David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con):
Con
Thank you, Presiding Officer.At the outset of my speech, I wish to clarify what this debate is about and what we are seeking to achieve with our motion. It i...
Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD):
LD
Was not 1988 during the period of the Conservative Government, when that Government was responsible for ensuring that its legislation complied with ECHR?
David McLetchie:
Con
Robert Brown's history is correct, but I return to what I said at the outset—this debate is about mechanisms. Under the previous system, a challenge to secti...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab):
Lab
Will David McLetchie confirm that all he has outlined is a series of possible challenges and suggestions from academics that measures may be contrary to ECHR...
David McLetchie:
Con
Yes, I am prepared to accept those figures, but there could well be 340 specious charges. Lawyers are creative people when it comes to furthering the interes...
The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace):
LD
First, I welcome this debate and thank Mr McLetchie and his party for giving the Parliament an opportunity to discuss an important and topical issue. Human r...
David McLetchie:
Con
Will the minister accept that, in the legislation on the armed forces disciplinary code, Westminster is taking action in anticipation of the need to bring ou...
Mr Wallace:
LD
I am grateful to Mr McLetchie for that question, because this is a case not of either/or but of both/and. There will be occasions where it is important—for e...
Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP):
SNP
I would like to say at the outset that the Scottish National party starts from a position of unequivocally supporting the incorporation of the European conve...
David McLetchie:
Con
On the incorporation of ECHR, we opposed the Human Rights Act 1998 because the issue is the relationship between the convention and our domestic law. The cur...
Roseanna Cunningham:
SNP
I hear what Mr McLetchie is saying, but the Conservatives' tone is one of grudging acceptance of a situation which most of us have welcomed. I sometimes wish...
Mr Jim Wallace:
LD
I hear what Roseanna Cunningham is saying. However, she mentioned that civil cases include custody and access cases. Will she accept that sheriffs principal ...
Roseanna Cunningham:
SNP
I do not doubt that sheriffs principal are doing their very best, but it is clear from the figures that, in many jurisdictions, they are doing a juggling act...
Gordon Jackson (Glasgow Govan ) (Lab):
Lab
It is all very well to say that such a change should be anticipated, but what age would Roseanna Cunningham set to ensure that it conforms to ECHR? Surely we...
Roseanna Cunningham:
SNP
It is inevitable that Gordon Jackson would ask that question. The truth is that once we decide that eight years old is not acceptable, we need to start the p...
Gordon Jackson (Glasgow Govan) (Lab):
Lab
For five minutes, I was enjoying myself, listening to Roseanna Cunningham. I was agreeing with her, and I say to David McLetchie that I share her disappointm...
David McLetchie:
Con
In relation to the certification of compatibility of ministers, does Gordon Jackson believe that a one-line certificate of compliance is sufficient for this ...
Gordon Jackson:
Lab
I understand what Mr McLetchie means, but the difficulty with having the full legal advice analysed is that two lawyers will give two opinions, three lawyers...
Roseanna Cunningham:
SNP
Does Gordon Jackson think that, if the age of criminal responsibility was set at eight, it would survive a challenge?
Gordon Jackson:
Lab
My honest opinion is that it would not have a snowball's chance in summer of surviving a challenge. However, the fact that I do not think that the proposal t...
David McLetchie:
Con
Would Gordon Jackson accept that the previous legal relationship between this country and the convention resulted in changes to our law? I am making the poin...
Gordon Jackson:
Lab
Of course that is right. It means that things are done more quickly. That is, however, far outweighed by the advantage for the citizen in having a matter res...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
SNP
The debate is now open. Speeches should last about four minutes; I will allow an additional minute or so for interventions.
Mrs Lyndsay McIntosh (Central Scotland) (Con):
Con
I am the first non-lawyer to speak. I do not get paid by the minute, so I will be brief.As has been said, we support the Government's aim of protecting the r...
Hugh Henry (Paisley South) (Lab):
Lab
I was fascinated to gain an insight into Roseanna Cunningham's surgeries—surgeries in rural Scotland are clearly very different from those in urban Scotland....
Mrs McIntosh:
Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Hugh Henry:
Lab
No, I am about to finish. I want to echo Jim Wallace's point that the promotion of a human rights culture in Scotland is fundamental. We must respect human r...
Michael Matheson (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
For a fleeting moment during Gordon Jackson's speech, I was of the mind that the problem is not with the ECHR, but with lawyers. We might not be having today...
Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD):
LD
First, I must declare an interest in respect of my membership of the Law Society of Scotland, and my legal consultancy with Ross, Harper and Murphy—not least...