Chamber
Plenary, 24 Feb 2000
24 Feb 2000 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Code of Conduct
On behalf of the Executive, I will begin by expressing our thanks—and, I hope, those of the entire chamber—to the Standards Committee for its work in an area that can, at times, be difficult. The committee is entitled to recognition for its very hard work.
The code of conduct is, of course, vital to the work of our Parliament. The way in which the Standards Committee has gone about its work reflects that fact. Our new Parliament is, and should be, at the forefront of setting standards of conduct for parliamentarians, not simply here in Scotland, but for others in other parts of the world, who will be able to look at what we do and learn from it. The Executive welcomes the fact that the Standards Committee will continue to develop and refine the standards that will govern work in the Scottish Parliament.
The references in the code to the oath of allegiance, or the affirmation, have been mentioned. The Executive welcomes their inclusion. We respect fully that others take another view, but our view is that it is perfectly proper for such mention to be made in the code. We believe that it clarifies and explains the nature of the devolved settlement and the Parliament's role in the context of the UK constitution.
The report also tells us that the committee will examine various methods of investigating complaints against members. We welcome that too, but it is important to say that, whatever method is finally recommended, our very firm view is that the role of the committee should not only be encouraged, but safeguarded. In essence, that is a matter for the Parliament itself, but the Executive looks forward to an open debate on that subject.
Lobbying has been mentioned. The Standards Committee has said that it will look again at lobbying in relation to members' conduct in carrying out their duties. The committee has also told us that it will make recommendations with regard to MSPs' staff. Everyone in the chamber knows that we have already had one high-profile investigation into allegations of lobbying.
Thankfully, everyone involved in that investigation was completely exonerated, but it is important to remember that there were times when the strong implication from other quarters was that people were guilty until they were proved innocent. It is vital for the standing of our Parliament that we strike the right balance between proper investigation and the protection from inaccurate reporting and gross exaggeration that members are entitled to expect.
Members will be aware that the Neill committee has recently published a report entitled "Reinforcing Standards". The report has a resonance in several of the areas in which the committee has worked or will work. The Executive will consider the Neill committee's recommendations on contact with lobbyists. That is consistent with our commitment to ensuring that the Executive observes the highest standards of conduct in public life.
Our firm view is that the Standards Committee report is helpful and consistent with the procedures and arrangements that we have or will put in place to ensure high standards in public life—some examples are the ministerial code, the civil service code, which, importantly, covers the activities of special advisers, and the much discussed forthcoming ethical standards in public life bill.
Time is short, so I will come to a close. We have noted that, while the code will guide members' conduct initially, it is the committee's intention to review the code and propose amendments in the light of future legislation and other relevant developments.
The Executive recognises that the code has been developed in the context of the Scotland Act 1998 (Transitory and Transitional Provisions) (Members' Interests) Order 1999, but there are some sections that may be viewed as over-prescriptive. The requirement to declare gifts of a certain value from a spouse or partner could be one example. We fully appreciate that the requirement remains because of the transitional order. When Parliament puts the members' interests order on a proper footing, we will need to consider how to achieve a balance between being rigorous and not being over-prescriptive.
The Executive welcomes the publication of the Standards Committee report and looks forward to contributing constructively to its refinement in the months and years ahead.
The code of conduct is, of course, vital to the work of our Parliament. The way in which the Standards Committee has gone about its work reflects that fact. Our new Parliament is, and should be, at the forefront of setting standards of conduct for parliamentarians, not simply here in Scotland, but for others in other parts of the world, who will be able to look at what we do and learn from it. The Executive welcomes the fact that the Standards Committee will continue to develop and refine the standards that will govern work in the Scottish Parliament.
The references in the code to the oath of allegiance, or the affirmation, have been mentioned. The Executive welcomes their inclusion. We respect fully that others take another view, but our view is that it is perfectly proper for such mention to be made in the code. We believe that it clarifies and explains the nature of the devolved settlement and the Parliament's role in the context of the UK constitution.
The report also tells us that the committee will examine various methods of investigating complaints against members. We welcome that too, but it is important to say that, whatever method is finally recommended, our very firm view is that the role of the committee should not only be encouraged, but safeguarded. In essence, that is a matter for the Parliament itself, but the Executive looks forward to an open debate on that subject.
Lobbying has been mentioned. The Standards Committee has said that it will look again at lobbying in relation to members' conduct in carrying out their duties. The committee has also told us that it will make recommendations with regard to MSPs' staff. Everyone in the chamber knows that we have already had one high-profile investigation into allegations of lobbying.
Thankfully, everyone involved in that investigation was completely exonerated, but it is important to remember that there were times when the strong implication from other quarters was that people were guilty until they were proved innocent. It is vital for the standing of our Parliament that we strike the right balance between proper investigation and the protection from inaccurate reporting and gross exaggeration that members are entitled to expect.
Members will be aware that the Neill committee has recently published a report entitled "Reinforcing Standards". The report has a resonance in several of the areas in which the committee has worked or will work. The Executive will consider the Neill committee's recommendations on contact with lobbyists. That is consistent with our commitment to ensuring that the Executive observes the highest standards of conduct in public life.
Our firm view is that the Standards Committee report is helpful and consistent with the procedures and arrangements that we have or will put in place to ensure high standards in public life—some examples are the ministerial code, the civil service code, which, importantly, covers the activities of special advisers, and the much discussed forthcoming ethical standards in public life bill.
Time is short, so I will come to a close. We have noted that, while the code will guide members' conduct initially, it is the committee's intention to review the code and propose amendments in the light of future legislation and other relevant developments.
The Executive recognises that the code has been developed in the context of the Scotland Act 1998 (Transitory and Transitional Provisions) (Members' Interests) Order 1999, but there are some sections that may be viewed as over-prescriptive. The requirement to declare gifts of a certain value from a spouse or partner could be one example. We fully appreciate that the requirement remains because of the transitional order. When Parliament puts the members' interests order on a proper footing, we will need to consider how to achieve a balance between being rigorous and not being over-prescriptive.
The Executive welcomes the publication of the Standards Committee report and looks forward to contributing constructively to its refinement in the months and years ahead.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel):
NPA
I remind members who may not have been present this morning that decision time will be at 5.30 pm today, to allow a full debate on the code of conduct. I cal...
Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
LD
It is with great pleasure that I am able, on behalf of my colleagues on the Standards Committee, to present our first report of 2000, which proposes a draft ...
Dennis Canavan (Falkirk West):
*
When I made the affirmation on taking my seat in this Parliament, I made it clear that I believe in the sovereignty of the people of Scotland rather than the...
The Minister for Parliament (Mr Tom McCabe):
Lab
On behalf of the Executive, I will begin by expressing our thanks—and, I hope, those of the entire chamber—to the Standards Committee for its work in an area...
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con):
Con
I rise to support Mr Mike Rumbles and my parliamentary colleagues on the Standards Committee who have agreed the code of conduct for members of the Scottish ...
Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
I thank Tom McCabe for his comments about the Standards Committee and the work in which we have been engaged since we were all elected. I would particularly ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
SNP
Nine members have indicated a wish to speak before Des McNulty winds up the debate. It should be possible to include everybody if speeches are kept to about ...
Mrs Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD):
LD
I welcome the code of conduct and I applaud the work of the Standards Committee. Lord James Douglas-Hamilton said that he hoped that the code would keep all ...
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I want to direct my remarks to section 8.3 of the code of conduct, on cross-party group rules. I endeavoured to intimate to Mike Rumbles and Des McNulty the ...
Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab):
Lab
On a point of order. I am concerned at the line and level of detail that Christine Grahame is pursuing. I do not think that it is appropriate in this context.
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
I share your concern, Mr McNulty.
Christine Grahame:
SNP
I accept that and will move on.A motion was put on the basis that the rules had not been ratified by the Parliament and that I was not debarred from moving t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
Ms Grahame, I must ask you to focus on the work of the Standards Committee.
Christine Grahame:
SNP
I am focusing on it.
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
Do so more precisely, please.
Christine Grahame:
SNP
My point is that the group would have been inhibited in discussing certain matters if the public had been there—not members of the general public, but the tw...
Des McNulty:
Lab
On a point of order. There is a difficulty, as Christine Grahame has not formally lodged amendments to the motion.
Christine Grahame:
SNP
I accept that.
Des McNulty:
Lab
If Christine Grahame wants to propose amendments for the Standards Committee to consider at a subsequent stage, there is a mechanism to allow her to do that....
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
I think that that would be fair. Will Ms Grahame please draw her remarks to a close?
Christine Grahame:
SNP
I shall draw my remarks to a close.
Mr Rumbles:
LD
It is important that we clarify the situation, so that members are absolutely clear about the rules for cross-party groups.The Parliament has already adopted...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
I agree with that comment. I ask Christine Grahame to cease her remarks unless she has anything of great urgency to say to the chamber.
Christine Grahame:
SNP
I knew that I could not move an amendment today, but there are practical difficulties that might not have been foreseen—and that might not be foreseen—by oth...
Janis Hughes (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome the opportunity to debate the issue today, as the subject of members' conduct goes hand in hand with our continuing desire to make the Scottish Par...
David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
Before I begin my speech, I want to declare all my registered interests, as I intend to refer to them.I have always argued that this Parliament should seek t...
Mr Rumbles:
LD
I will try to clarify the issue. If a member has a registrable interest, has registered it and wants to speak about it in a debate, the procedure is straight...
David Mundell:
Con
That is helpful, but guidance to members would be useful. Obviously, the situation will evolve as the committee considers individual cases, but—as Mr Rumbles...
Ms Sandra White (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
Although this might not be the most riveting subject for debate—by the number of members of the press who have been present throughout, it is clear that they...
Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP):
SSP
In public life, I have never lied or knowingly misled. That is why members who have asked me how I got my black eye have believed me when I have told them th...