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Chamber

Plenary, 24 Feb 2000

24 Feb 2000 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Children (Physical Punishment)
I join my colleagues in welcoming the consultation document; it is clear that this area of policy must be updated. The document demonstrates that much of the existing law centres on the rights of parents or those caring for children rather than on the rights of the child. The Executive and the Parliament will be criticised by some parents for interfering with their rights. Parental rights are important, but in a civilised society a child's right to protection must take precedence over a parent's right to chastise. I look forward with interest to the outcome of the consultation; I hope to hear the views of parents and young people, rather than those of the professional reactionaries.

Before dealing with my principal concern, I want to state my doubts about having a complete ban on the physical chastisement of children, even by parents. Although I welcome the intention to make progress in this area, I am not yet convinced that an outright ban is either justified or practical. I draw members' attention to the findings of the MORI poll that was conducted on behalf of the Children are Unbeatable! campaign. The poll found that 78 per cent of parents and young people believed that children should have the same protection under the law on assault, provided that

"they can be sure that parents will not be prosecuted for trivial smacks."

I take on board Scott Barrie's point that the threat of such prosecution might be an erroneous perception; however, the perception exists and must be tackled.

Although, after much consideration, I endorse the views expressed by that 78 per cent of people, the law must be more comprehensive and must take account of the situation where other adults find themselves in a parental role. The issue is how we proceed in a way that achieves cohesion, a greater understanding of the issues and a better future for our young people.

Although much in the consultation document is commendable, the Executive has not yet properly focused on the rights and interests of the child. That is most clearly illustrated by the debate about protection for children who are in child care centres and private pre-school centres, and who are looked after by child minders. I commend to the Executive the application of the non-discriminatory approach to children's rights contained in the 1989 UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.

During the consultation, we must consider whether it is acceptable to ban corporal punishment of children in publicly funded pre-school centres while permitting the same punishment of children in privately funded pre-school centres. From the perspective of children, I can see no justification for such an approach. I question the equity of some children losing their right to protection from assault simply because their parents belong to a certain social or economic group. Human rights, including those of children, should not be removable through the application of a cheque book.

The Executive's position that we should move forward with legislation at a different pace in the public sector from that in the private sector is deeply worrying. If it is impossible to address the issue under the Standards in Scotland's Schools etc Bill, I urge the Executive to initiate discussions with a view to introducing parallel legislation for both the public and private sectors. The commitment to a child's most fundamental right must be more specific than a statement of future intent.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson): Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-586, in the name of Mr Jim Wallace, on the physical punishment of children, and amendments to that motion.
The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): LD
The Executive has sought this debate today so that members of the Scottish Parliament may have an opportunity to express their views about the Executive's pr...
Mrs Lyndsay McIntosh (Central Scotland) (Con): Con
But.
Mr Wallace: LD
We also recognise the value of asking the question in order to expose the issue to debate. It is not our intention to stifle debate, which would be a danger ...
Mrs McIntosh: Con
But.
Mr Wallace: LD
But.The amendment calls on the Executive to take full account of all views expressed in the consultation. That is a matter of normal practice so we can suppo...
Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP): SNP
Not always, Jim.
Mr Wallace: LD
I remember that it was in a previous Administration that Lord James described a consultation as a genuine consultation—that was perhaps more a feature of tha...
The Deputy Presiding Officer: Lab
Please wind up, minister.
Mr Wallace: LD
Change in legislation usually happens because the attitudes of society change. The Executive believes that the prevailing attitude in Scotland is that parent...
Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP): SNP
The SNP welcomes the Scottish Executive's consultation on physical punishment of children. As the Deputy First Minister said, it is eight years since the Sco...
Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): Con
I welcome Nicola Sturgeon's comments about consulting children. Unlike Jim Wallace, I see no difficulty in supporting her amendment. Were we in government, w...
Nicola Sturgeon: SNP
I am glad that the Tories have learned from their mistakes and are now in favour of consulting people; that is not something that they were good at when they...
Mrs McIntosh: Con
Will Nicola Sturgeon give way?
Nicola Sturgeon: SNP
I may accept interventions later in my speech.I am sure that most parents would consider those methods of discipline far more effective than smacking a child...
Mrs Lyndsay McIntosh (Central Scotland) (Con): Con
Deputy Presiding Officer, I am sure that there have been occasions on which you have witnessed behaviour here and wished that you could administer a smack. H...
Scott Barrie (Dunfermline West) (Lab): Lab
Is Mrs McIntosh seriously suggesting that we turn the clock back to pre-1986 and reintroduce the belt into our schools?
Mrs McIntosh: Con
I am saying that there is an opinion abroad that that might be appropriate. That is all that I am saying.The Executive may wish to consider why parents all o...
Scott Barrie (Dunfermline West) (Lab): Lab
I welcome this debate on the Executive's consultation paper, although it seems a bit late in the day that, in 2000, we are discussing how we hit our children...
Mrs McIntosh: Con
I find it hard to believe that Mr Barrie had friends who competed to get the belt. I had it once in my life, and it cured me.
Scott Barrie: Lab
As someone who never had the belt, I am not sure what that means. The point that I was making was that a number of people went out of their way to be belted,...
Irene McGugan (North-East Scotland) (SNP): SNP
Like others, I welcome the fact that we are to have consultation on this issue, followed by legislation. The crucial point is how much or how little Scotland...
Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab): Lab
I am pleased that the debate is taking place, as it sends a message to the people of Scotland that the Scottish Parliament is committed to children. We have ...
Mrs McIntosh: Con
For some people, those are terms of affection.
Cathy Jamieson: Lab
I am sorry, but I simply do not see it that way.We have moved a considerable way towards zero tolerance of domestic violence; we should move towards zero tol...
Linda Fabiani (Central Scotland) (SNP): SNP
I join my colleagues in welcoming the consultation document; it is clear that this area of policy must be updated. The document demonstrates that much of the...
Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP): SNP
All members will agree that this Parliament should not turn into some sort of Mary Poppins for adults, acting as a national nanny to parents by wagging its f...
Scott Barrie: Lab
Will Dorothy-Grace Elder give way?
Dorothy-Grace Elder: SNP
I am sorry. I am a back bencher and we do not get much of a chance to speak in this Parliament, and when we do it is only for four minutes. Other members get...
Scott Barrie: Lab
As one back bencher to another—