Chamber
Plenary, 24 Feb 2000
24 Feb 2000 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Children (Physical Punishment)
The SNP welcomes the Scottish Executive's consultation on physical punishment of children. As the Deputy First Minister said, it is eight years since the Scottish Law Commission dealt with the matter in its "Report on Family Law", and most people in Scotland accept that legislative change is long overdue. There is no doubt that the law needs to be changed. As it stands, Scots law does not afford children the protection that the European convention on human rights demands and which children at the beginning of the 21st century deserve. That is why no change is not an option. The questions that must be addressed, and which are addressed to some extent in the consultation, are how and to what degree the law in Scotland should be changed.
I have two preliminary points. First, although the consultation is essentially about proposed changes to the law, the debate should not be couched in legalistic terminology. The debate is fundamentally about children, and their interests should be at the heart of the debate. The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice commented on the SNP amendment. In the vast majority of cases, if parents are responsible and loving, the interests of parents and the interests of children should be compatible and should be given mutual respect in the framing of our law. In the application of that law there will be recognition that, in a minority of cases, there may be conflict. However, the law must be able to ensure, on the basis of mutual respect, that those cases can be dealt with. I did not hear any real reason in Jim Wallace's speech why the Executive cannot accept the Scottish National party's amendment, which is offered in a constructive spirit. I hope that the Executive will accept that amendment.
My second preliminary point is that it is important that the Executive does not prejudge the outcome of the consultation. I welcome Mr Wallace's comment that he does not want to stifle debate. The views of the Scottish people must be listened to, including the views of children themselves. One of the weaknesses of the consultation paper is that it says nothing at all about the views of children. Although the Tory amendment talks about children being sure of their rights, it says nothing about taking children's views into account. Under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, we are duty-bound to listen to children and to take their views into account on all decisions that affect them.
That issue provides another strong reminder of the overwhelming case for bringing Scotland into line with a host of other European countries by appointing a children's commissioner, someone at the heart of Government who can ensure that children's views are positively promoted. I urge the Executive to work constructively with the Education, Culture and Sport Committee towards that objective.
I have two preliminary points. First, although the consultation is essentially about proposed changes to the law, the debate should not be couched in legalistic terminology. The debate is fundamentally about children, and their interests should be at the heart of the debate. The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice commented on the SNP amendment. In the vast majority of cases, if parents are responsible and loving, the interests of parents and the interests of children should be compatible and should be given mutual respect in the framing of our law. In the application of that law there will be recognition that, in a minority of cases, there may be conflict. However, the law must be able to ensure, on the basis of mutual respect, that those cases can be dealt with. I did not hear any real reason in Jim Wallace's speech why the Executive cannot accept the Scottish National party's amendment, which is offered in a constructive spirit. I hope that the Executive will accept that amendment.
My second preliminary point is that it is important that the Executive does not prejudge the outcome of the consultation. I welcome Mr Wallace's comment that he does not want to stifle debate. The views of the Scottish people must be listened to, including the views of children themselves. One of the weaknesses of the consultation paper is that it says nothing at all about the views of children. Although the Tory amendment talks about children being sure of their rights, it says nothing about taking children's views into account. Under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, we are duty-bound to listen to children and to take their views into account on all decisions that affect them.
That issue provides another strong reminder of the overwhelming case for bringing Scotland into line with a host of other European countries by appointing a children's commissioner, someone at the heart of Government who can ensure that children's views are positively promoted. I urge the Executive to work constructively with the Education, Culture and Sport Committee towards that objective.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson):
Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-586, in the name of Mr Jim Wallace, on the physical punishment of children, and amendments to that motion.
The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace):
LD
The Executive has sought this debate today so that members of the Scottish Parliament may have an opportunity to express their views about the Executive's pr...
Mrs Lyndsay McIntosh (Central Scotland) (Con):
Con
But.
Mr Wallace:
LD
We also recognise the value of asking the question in order to expose the issue to debate. It is not our intention to stifle debate, which would be a danger ...
Mrs McIntosh:
Con
But.
Mr Wallace:
LD
But.The amendment calls on the Executive to take full account of all views expressed in the consultation. That is a matter of normal practice so we can suppo...
Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
Not always, Jim.
Mr Wallace:
LD
I remember that it was in a previous Administration that Lord James described a consultation as a genuine consultation—that was perhaps more a feature of tha...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
Please wind up, minister.
Mr Wallace:
LD
Change in legislation usually happens because the attitudes of society change. The Executive believes that the prevailing attitude in Scotland is that parent...
Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
The SNP welcomes the Scottish Executive's consultation on physical punishment of children. As the Deputy First Minister said, it is eight years since the Sco...
Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
I welcome Nicola Sturgeon's comments about consulting children. Unlike Jim Wallace, I see no difficulty in supporting her amendment. Were we in government, w...
Nicola Sturgeon:
SNP
I am glad that the Tories have learned from their mistakes and are now in favour of consulting people; that is not something that they were good at when they...
Mrs McIntosh:
Con
Will Nicola Sturgeon give way?
Nicola Sturgeon:
SNP
I may accept interventions later in my speech.I am sure that most parents would consider those methods of discipline far more effective than smacking a child...
Mrs Lyndsay McIntosh (Central Scotland) (Con):
Con
Deputy Presiding Officer, I am sure that there have been occasions on which you have witnessed behaviour here and wished that you could administer a smack. H...
Scott Barrie (Dunfermline West) (Lab):
Lab
Is Mrs McIntosh seriously suggesting that we turn the clock back to pre-1986 and reintroduce the belt into our schools?
Mrs McIntosh:
Con
I am saying that there is an opinion abroad that that might be appropriate. That is all that I am saying.The Executive may wish to consider why parents all o...
Scott Barrie (Dunfermline West) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome this debate on the Executive's consultation paper, although it seems a bit late in the day that, in 2000, we are discussing how we hit our children...
Mrs McIntosh:
Con
I find it hard to believe that Mr Barrie had friends who competed to get the belt. I had it once in my life, and it cured me.
Scott Barrie:
Lab
As someone who never had the belt, I am not sure what that means. The point that I was making was that a number of people went out of their way to be belted,...
Irene McGugan (North-East Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Like others, I welcome the fact that we are to have consultation on this issue, followed by legislation. The crucial point is how much or how little Scotland...
Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab):
Lab
I am pleased that the debate is taking place, as it sends a message to the people of Scotland that the Scottish Parliament is committed to children. We have ...
Mrs McIntosh:
Con
For some people, those are terms of affection.
Cathy Jamieson:
Lab
I am sorry, but I simply do not see it that way.We have moved a considerable way towards zero tolerance of domestic violence; we should move towards zero tol...
Linda Fabiani (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I join my colleagues in welcoming the consultation document; it is clear that this area of policy must be updated. The document demonstrates that much of the...
Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
All members will agree that this Parliament should not turn into some sort of Mary Poppins for adults, acting as a national nanny to parents by wagging its f...
Scott Barrie:
Lab
Will Dorothy-Grace Elder give way?
Dorothy-Grace Elder:
SNP
I am sorry. I am a back bencher and we do not get much of a chance to speak in this Parliament, and when we do it is only for four minutes. Other members get...
Scott Barrie:
Lab
As one back bencher to another—