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Chamber

Plenary, 09 Dec 1999

09 Dec 1999 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
The bill is to be welcomed—that is clear—but there are some problems with it. I am not sure whether the bill will last as long as the Curators Act 1585, which is the first act to be repealed by the new bill.

The change in the bill's title to "adults with incapacity"—from the original proposal of "incapable adults"—recognises that incapacity is not an absolute, for the individual with a learning disability, or for the individual with Alzheimer's. Incapacity may be temporary or permanent, it may be worsening, or it may vary according to the area in which the decisions are to be made. Much attention has been paid to the most severe situations, but the thresholds of incapacity are important and I am not convinced that the bill covers them adequately.

The rules on consent for treatment in relation to children, which have always been rather person- oriented in Scotland, have recently changed to allow consent to be given based on the ability to understand, without a specific age limit. It seems that the bill attempts to treat incapacity in a similar way, but that is not absolutely clear because of the

medical certification that has to be issued. Such certification has to deal in absolutes, rather than in thresholds.

Evidence from various organisations has indicated that people with learning disabilities at the most severe end of the scale will undoubtedly require the full capacity of the bill, but those at the lesser end will not. We are slightly hide-bound by the timing of the Millan commission; if it had reported first, we might have had new definitions, which would have made things much easier.

Will the minister, in summing up, advise what consideration was given to the inclusion in the bill of a concept of partial incapacity, assisted decision making, or advocacy? None of those terms appears in the bill, yet they are the new clinical issues at present.

On the matters that have caused the greatest difficulty—certainly, the Health and Community Care Committee has had problems with them—I will limit my remarks to three areas. First, the decisions are currently made by a team rather than by individuals, and it would be helpful to find a way of recognising that in the bill.

The second difficulty concerns the balance between the decision of the medical team and that of the proxy. I understand from the minister's speech that an amendment will be proposed on that, but—as the minister said—it is a matter of balance between the two decisions. It seems to me that the courts should be involved only in instances where disagreement is recognised between the two. There should be no primacy over who should go to court. I am not a lawyer. I do not know how that could be done. However, when it is recognised that decisions should be made jointly, if they are not and if there is a dispute, there should be an automatic reference to the courts, rather than one or other party having to go to court.

There has been much discussion about duty of care. I accept the evidence of Professor Sheila McLean to the Justice and Home Affairs Committee that we cannot impose a duty of care on proxies. That would be inappropriate. Nevertheless, there is inadequate reference in section 73 to the limit of liability of proxies, and it would be helpful to extend that limit in some way without going as far as a duty of care.

The issue of omissions as opposed to commissions of intervention has been dealt with. I understand that legally, interventions include intervening as well as not intervening. However, the issue of cessation of treatment has not been covered adequately.

On the matter of research, if I understand the minister's statement, the bill will be amended to take into account the European Convention on

Human Rights and Biomedicine. I welcome that, because the original text of the bill seemed to rule out the use of randomised controlled trials with placebos, and also defined the benefit to the individual as having to be "real and direct", which was a strict definition that would rule out genetic research that might produce a distant benefit.

The bill is to be welcomed. It will benefit a significant number of adults. However, the definitions in section 1, particularly those in relation to the wishes of the individual, are not sufficiently clear. I am not a lawyer, but if primacy is given to section 1(4)(a), which refers to

"the present and past wishes and feelings of the adult so far as they can be ascertained", the written statements that I was presented with as a general practitioner, and which many of my GP colleagues increasingly are being presented with, will be of considerable importance. It might be possible to address that issue in notes of guidance, but further clarification is required at stage 2.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): SNP
We move to the next item of business, a debate on motion S1M-213, in the name of Mr Jim Wallace, which seeks the Parliament's agreement to the general princi...
The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace): LD
I am pleased to move this motion to approve the general principles of the Adults with Incapacity (Scotland) Bill. The bill is a major piece of law reform. It...
Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP): SNP
Part of the problem that I have with the bill is the inclusion of people in discussions of how to decide to give power of attorney, for example. What does th...
Mr Wallace: LD
Individual cases—it is important to stress that cases are considered individually—will differ according to the individual's incapacity and the particular cir...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab): Lab
I welcome the change to section 44 and the deletion of the reference to nutrition and hydration by artificial means as a medical treatment. However, as that ...
Mr Wallace: LD
Malcolm Chisholm is talking about situations in which there is a conflict of opinion between the doctor and the guardian on a proposed course of action. We h...
Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP): SNP
It is only right that, as convener of the Justice and Home Affairs Committee, I take a few minutes in the chamber to comment on the committee's experience of...
The Deputy Presiding Officer: SNP
Please close.
Roseanna Cunningham: SNP
A great deal of concern has also been expressed about the definition of "medical treatment" in the bill. In large part, that is linked to the definition of "...
The Deputy Presiding Officer: SNP
Will you close now, please?
Roseanna Cunningham: SNP
The clock shows that I have 50 seconds left, Presiding Officer.
The Deputy Presiding Officer: SNP
You are two minutes over.
Roseanna Cunningham: SNP
We should recognise that many organisations feel that, whether it intends to or not, the bill will introduce euthanasia by the back door. Much of the evidenc...
Ben Wallace (North-East Scotland) (Con): Con
I speak as the reporting member of the Health and Community Care Committee and as the deputy health spokesman for the Conservative party. When I welcome the ...
Mr Jim Wallace: LD
I am happy to give the member that assurance.
Ben Wallace: Con
Although we all agree with its aims, the proposed legislation throws up the ethical question of euthanasia. Despite the minister's assurances, there are part...
The Deputy Presiding Officer: SNP
I call Nora Radcliffe.
Nora Radcliffe (Gordon) (LD): LD
I did not expect to be called.
The Deputy Presiding Officer: SNP
You are on the list to speak for the Liberal Democrats. Do you want to speak? If not, I can open the general debate.
Nora Radcliffe: LD
I have not prepared a speech, but I will make some remarks, wearing my equal opportunities hat. I welcome, in particular, the bill's emphasis on the rights o...
The Deputy Presiding Officer: SNP
Contrary to expectation, we can probably fit in two general speeches before lunch. I call Richard Simpson, to be followed by Kay Ullrich.
Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): Lab
The bill is to be welcomed—that is clear—but there are some problems with it. I am not sure whether the bill will last as long as the Curators Act 1585, whic...
Kay Ullrich (West of Scotland) (SNP): SNP
As Roseanna Cunningham said, we made a commitment in our manifesto for the Scottish Parliament to support an incapable adults bill, with the proviso that the...
The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel): NPA
I am sorry, but the chair is in some slight confusion. The debate will be resumed this afternoon.I advise members who have indicated a wish to speak that I h...