Committee
Transport and the Environment Committee, 20 Nov 2002
20 Nov 2002 · S1 · Transport and the Environment Committee
Item of business
Water Environment and Water Services (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
On the basis of the minister's commitment, I am content to seek the committee's agreement to withdraw amendment 24.When I spoke to amendment 56, I indicated that it was a probing amendment. As the minister indicated, it was an attempt to place a higher duty on the Scottish Executive in relation to the protection of the water environment. The minister has recognised that higher duties need to be imposed through other mechanisms. On the basis that further amendments will be lodged to achieve that, either later in stage 2 or at stage 3, I am content not to move amendment 56.Amendment 57 raises more difficult issues. I accept that incorporating wetlands in the bill would expand its scope significantly. However, to some extent that is the intention behind the amendment. To persuade me not to move amendment 57, the minister would have to provide us with details of both the cost and scope implications of the amendment. The minister may be prepared to consider the drafting issues that have been raised. However, the will of the committee is that wetlands should be recognised explicitly in the bill.The minister referred to the provisions of section 1(2)(a), but those do not go anywhere in the bill as drafted. We want the importance of wetlands and scope of what we are trying to achieve to be recognised and advanced in the bill.I am prepared to be persuaded that amendment 57, as drafted, may not be the best way of doing that. I am also prepared to be persuaded that the cost implications of the amendment may make it inappropriate. However, I am not content with the minister's suggestion that wetlands cannot be included in the bill because so much of Scotland would be affected. I want him to recognise that we must incorporate the protection of wetlands into the bill. His response on that point will influence the position that I take on amendment 57.
In the same item of business
The Convener:
Lab
I welcome back to the committee the Deputy Minister for Environment and Rural Development, Allan Wilson and several officials from the Scottish Executive.Mem...
Section 1—General purpose of Part 1
The Convener:
Lab
Amendment 108, in the name of Nora Radcliffe, is in a group on its own.
Nora Radcliffe (Gordon) (LD):
LD
In a sense, we are starting where we left off. At the end of our last meeting, I argued the case for the establishment of a benchmark against which the effec...
The Deputy Minister for Environment and Rural Development (Allan Wilson):
Lab
There is an element of groundhog day to this. I reassure Nora Radcliffe that preventing the deterioration of our water bodies is a key part of the bill, and ...
Nora Radcliffe:
LD
With due respect, I refute some of the minister's arguments. The whole point about the water directive was that it gave member states flexibility. That way o...
Amendment 108, by agreement, withdrawn.
Section 1 agreed to.
Section 2—The general duties
The Convener:
Lab
Amendment 24, in the name of Des McNulty, is grouped with amendments 56, 84, 27, 30 and 57.
Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab):
Lab
I spoke on issues relating to amendment 24 last week, so in recognition that we do not want to spend a lot of time in groundhog day, I will not repeat every ...
The Convener:
Lab
Fiona McLeod has not yet arrived, so I invite Bruce Crawford to speak on amendment 84.
Bruce Crawford (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
Fiona's train has been held up. I shall speak on her behalf.Des McNulty said that amendment 56 was a probing amendment to see whether the minister would be p...
Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab):
Lab
The key words in amendment 27 are "active involvement". I concede that the bill includes a provision on consultation, which will bind SEPA to take account of...
Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green):
Green
With amendment 30, I want to strengthen section 2(5) of the bill, which states:"Without prejudice to subsections (1) to (4), the Scottish Ministers and every...
Nora Radcliffe:
LD
I support Des McNulty's amendment 24, because the three-legged stool approach to sustainable development—that there are three elements that should each be gi...
Allan Wilson:
Lab
Many issues have been raised and I will try to work through them in a way that ensures that I take people with me.Amendment 24 asks us to insert a new paragr...
The Convener:
Lab
I thank the minister for his comprehensive response. The group contains a number of amendments. Because of that, I allowed the minister the opportunity of re...
Des McNulty:
Lab
I take on board the commitments that the minister made, in particular his important commitment to promote a stage 3 amendment that would have the effect of i...
Allan Wilson:
Lab
Yes, I would be happy to do that.
Des McNulty:
Lab
On the basis of the minister's commitment, I am content to seek the committee's agreement to withdraw amendment 24.When I spoke to amendment 56, I indicated ...
The Convener:
Lab
Given that Des McNulty has put a question to the minister, I am prepared to allow the minister to respond to that.
Allan Wilson:
Lab
As I indicated earlier, wetlands are included in the designation. Des McNulty asked a specific question about the potential costs of amendment 57. We are con...
Des McNulty:
Lab
I understand from considerations within the European Union that there is likely to be a revision of the water directive, which will explicitly expand the req...
The Convener:
Lab
You can address that point to the minister, but I want to draw this discussion to a close, because we do not want a dialogue between the pair of you to conti...
Allan Wilson:
Lab
Michael Kellet discussed precisely that at a European meeting either last week or two weeks ago. The relationship between the Executive and the EU as far as ...
The Convener:
Lab
I ask Des McNulty to complete his remarks briefly.
Des McNulty:
Lab
I have completed them already.
The Convener:
Lab
I understand that you indicated earlier that you wished to withdraw amendment 24. Is that correct?
Des McNulty:
Lab
Yes.